Why faith is so difficult....Cain murders Able

[1hole]

.... It's been some time since Christians felt the need to hang Quakers. See what I mean?

Goodness. Where in the world do you get your information?

[1hole]

Well UK, I'm something of a student of American history and never heard of that; so where did you get it?

Hope you find my response interesting.

You are obviously a well educated and intellectual man. So, assuming your unbiased account to be true, I would first note for your consideration we were an extension of your English king in 1660. Thus, there was no "American" establishment at all and you know it.

I'm sure you are also well aware that what would become the United States began and long remained a few scattered groups of intolerant and hard nosed farmers - almost entirely British - until well after 1776/1812. Our founders fought very hard for several years to eject English control so please don't try to push responsibility for the atrocities you cite on us.

[Blackwater]

UK, if you accept anyone who labels themselves "Christian" as being so, then you are NOT the discerning man I have long taken you to be. People given over to emotional extremes have been led to Christ, and instead of receiving Christ in reality, they instead received a good excuse to hate and go after others in order to satisfy their own blood lust. If I called myself a pound cake, would you try to eat me? Of course not! Well, don't do something similar in treating these examples you cite as being "Christian." THey just called themselves Christian, and behaved as something QUITE different. That's how we who ARE Christian explain it. Does it meet with your satisfaction, and clarify things for you?

[dverna]

There are “Christians” who would burn the homes of homosexuals. So never accept that someone who professes to be a Christian will act as one under every situation.

There are “Christians” that molest children.

So UK Shootist, what label a person applies to themselves is not a measure of the label.

Fortunately for those who abuse the label Christian, I am not God. I could never forgiven many for the evils they have done to others. Maybe someday I will understand why God will forgive us just as easily fior minor sins as for the most heinous atrocities man is capable of....but I am not there yet.

Faith is not easy.

[Thundarstick]

.


And



Two good posts that contain much sense. The problem is they introduce shades of grey into what is all too often thought of as black or white. This conforms the different degrees of Christianity that I have been barracked with on this and other threads. To the outsider (me) it can only end in me making up my own mind and interpreting both faith and the bible as I believe it to be. This is, of course and as you will obviously know, will be considered by some (many?) to be a straight road to hell and I'm in the fast lane.

As I have said a number of times, I believe I have more faith in Jesus that many who profess Christianity. I doubt that a just God would let a little thing like my death interfere with my salvation being available through a good life and not just through accepting words I cannot believe.

If you have any faith in Jesus, at all, you owe it to yourself to study what he taught about God, himself, and what pleases our creator father God. Then perhaps reevaluate what you think about him. Christianity is a relationship a Christian grows in, and not one in that we are perfect in immediately. Depending on where one is in understanding will yealed different answers to the same question.

[Thundarstick]

Ain't that both the truth and the problem.

Indeed

[Blackwater]

.


And



Two good posts that contain much sense. The problem is they introduce shades of grey into what is all too often thought of as black or white. This conforms the different degrees of Christianity that I have been barracked with on this and other threads. To the outsider (me) it can only end in me making up my own mind and interpreting both faith and the bible as I believe it to be. This is, of course and as you will obviously know, will be considered by some (many?) to be a straight road to hell and I'm in the fast lane.

As I have said a number of times, I believe I have more faith in Jesus that many who profess Christianity. I doubt that a just God would let a little thing like my death interfere with my salvation being available through a good life and not just through accepting words I cannot believe.

Seeing "gray areas" in the two posts you list is NOT going to pass muster here. We explained that there is a difference between CLAIMING to be Christian, and actually BEING one. There's no gray area between those two. I'd think a man of your extreme faith in your own rationality would have spotted that error .... if it wasn't intended to start with?

And there are NO "degrees" of Christianity. There's only levels of maturity and understanding. God is not an easy subject to grasp and understand. Newly professed Christians need a lot of help and nurturing to really get a firm grip on their faith, and to develop it fully. And various people have more or less time to devote to that edification, and some don't have faith that THEY can understand it even if they read the Bible, so ... they don't. But ultimately, there are NO "degrees" of Christianity. But I think you knew that, didn't you? You're far too learned to have missed that in your long life and great experiences.

[T_McD]

The issue is that leaves me back where I started. I am reliant on my own interpretation of Scripture as its the blind leading the blind.

I suppose I will continue to believe that I was endowed with a discerning and critical mind for a reason.

[T_McD]

In the meantime, please avoid at all costs leaping from the top of high buildings with wholly inadequate and untested set of mechanical wings. That sort of faith kills. Quite a few others do too but that's for another time.

I have the utmost respect for and faith in Gravity. It’s not just a good idea....





It’s the law!

[Leftyfixit]

God as the form of the Holy Spirit speaks to us constantly. The problem is we have to make an effort to hear Him. We know we stand between two principalities. The kingdom of God is here until Jesus returns and takes His saved or children home. Those who do not trust and believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior will find the truth but only after it is too late. They are children belonging to the devil for now until they stand before the judgement seat of God. Then each of us will receive our just fate based on who we did or did not believe in during our lives. God have mercy on each of us as we choose where We will send our souls for forever.

[Rizzo]

......... The kingdom of God is here until Jesus returns and takes His saved or children home. Those who do not trust and believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior will find the truth but only after it is too late. They are children belonging to the devil for now until they stand before the judgement seat of God. ..................

Wow.
So those who aren't Christian are children belonging to the devil, eh?
Uh-huh,... uh-huh.
Nonsense.

[dtknowles]

God as the form of the Holy Spirit speaks to us constantly. The problem is we have to make an effort to hear Him. We know we stand between two principalities. The kingdom of God is here until Jesus returns and takes His saved or children home. Those who do not trust and believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior will find the truth but only after it is too late. They are children belonging to the devil for now until they stand before the judgement seat of God. Then each of us will receive our just fate based on who we did or did not believe in during our lives. God have mercy on each of us as we choose where We will send our souls for forever.

We know what Christians believe. I think they are wrong about some things like I think you don't have to believe Jesus is God to be saved. That is just a religious precept promulgated by the Christian Church.

Tim

[1hole]

We know what Christians believe. I think they are wrong about some things like I think you don't have to believe Jesus is God to be saved. That is just a religious precept promulgated by the Christian Church.

Goodness Tim, when you're dead wrong your "I think" is deadly self delusion.

If you seriously think there is no requirement to "believe Jesus is God to be saved" then (1) from what, and (2) to what end, and (3) through whom, do you think anyone is "saved"?

You've been told the after life is binary, there are only two places to spend eternity. If you don't make the right choice before you die here then, by default, you've effectively chosen to follow the demons later. And none of your "thinking" will matter.

Of course you're absolutely right that simply "believing Jesus is God to be saved", of itself, won't buy you anything; even the demons "believe and shudder" (James 2:19).

You continue to think God's heaven is a right for those who have earned it even tho that isn't true. Truth is, the spiritual truths of salvation have been repeatedly, carefully and fully explained to you but you persist in ignoring it. So I ask, do you really want the truth ... or are you just hoping to get someone here to care what you think about God and his eternity?

[dtknowles]

Goodness Tim, when you're dead wrong your "I think" is deadly self delusion.

If you seriously think there is no requirement to "believe Jesus is God to be saved" then (1) from what, and (2) to what end, and (3) through whom, do you think anyone is "saved"?

You've been told the after life is binary, there are only two places to spend eternity. If you don't make the right choice before you die here then, by default, you've effectively chosen to follow the demons later. And none of your "thinking" will matter.

Of course you're absolutely right that simply "believing Jesus is God to be saved", of itself, won't buy you anything; even the demons "believe and shudder" (James 2:19).

You continue to think God's heaven is a right for those who have earned it even tho that isn't true. Truth is, the spiritual truths of salvation have been repeatedly, carefully and fully explained to you but you persist in ignoring it. So I ask, do you really want the truth ... or are you just hoping to get someone here to care what you think about God and his eternity?

I am spreading my beliefs so that more will be saved and more good will be done by the living. You have carefully and repeatedly explained Christian beliefs to me. I already understand them and reject them. You have told me that there are only two places where we can spend eternity but what would be the point of God punishing the dead. Really, what would that accomplish? God either grants you life after death or you are done and gone. You either convince God to keep you around after you die or you are gone.

Tim

[Ickisrulz]

There are “Christians” who would burn the homes of homosexuals. So never accept that someone who professes to be a Christian will act as one under every situation.

There are “Christians” that molest children.

So UK Shootist, what label a person applies to themselves is not a measure of the label.

Fortunately for those who abuse the label Christian, I am not God. I could never forgiven many for the evils they have done to others. Maybe someday I will understand why God will forgive us just as easily fior minor sins as for the most heinous atrocities man is capable of....but I am not there yet.

Faith is not easy.

Assuming you have children, is there anything your child could do that you would not forgive?

[dverna]

Assuming you have children, is there anything your child could do that you would not forgive?

Of course. I could not forgive murder. My child would deserve to be executed. I could not do it, but I would accept such a sentence and outcome.

[Ickisrulz]

Of course. I could not forgive murder. My child would deserve to be executed. I could not do it, but I would accept such a sentence and outcome.

I think I asked the wrong question. Is there anything your child could do that would make you stop loving them?

[dtknowles]

If he's made life then he has an obligation to it. Just like any parent owes an obligation to a child.

If it was that difficult then why not make it just little bit more obvious? Anyone reading the Old Testament can be left in no doubt that God was not shy about revealing his existence at all. Why so shy for the last two thousand years?

I think the obligation has limits. You can't make you child succeed and if you try to hard you will ruin the child.

I think millennia ago God tried the being a bit more obvious and that did not really go well. For the last two thousand years God has been more subtle. Much has been written about God and new religions have formed in that time. God is still working in the world.

Tim

[dverna]

I think I asked the wrong question. Is there anything your child could do that would make you stop loving them?

That is a tougher question...and I think I know where you are going with it.

But if my child murdered a sibling...or if they were an adult and raped or murdered my grandchild, I am not sure I could love them any longer.

I understand that God will still love them...and that, like God, we are to love everyone...but I doubt I will ever reach that level of spiritual pureness.

[1hole]

I am spreading my beliefs so that more will be saved and more good will be done by the living. You have carefully and repeatedly explained Christian beliefs to me. I already understand them and reject them.

Well, I (and others) honestly wrote in response to your presumed honest questions. Now it seems you already knew what our responses would be and had rejected our testimony(s) to truth before we even answered. So, I ask, why did you even ask? Was/Is it perhaps your way of directing the discussion in ways that would provide you with a podium to announce your own "I thinks"? If so, that seems dishonest!

We have given you answers from God according to his written word, not our own ideas. Seems you think all of your "I thinks"
trumps what God thinks! Good luck with that but I doubt your thinking has any effect on him.

If you think your thinking is that important I think you should create your own heavens, earth and hell and set up your own rules.

You have told me that there are only two places where we can spend eternity but what would be the point of God punishing the dead. Really, what would that accomplish?

God either grants you life after death or you are done and gone. You either convince God to keep you around after you die or you are gone.

Again, I'll say it one last time; God grants each of us an immortal spirit at conception. Our mortal bodies will die but our spirits will live eternally. At the last resurrection, just before the Great White Throne judgements, the bodies of those who rejected Jesus' offer and, by that act (John 3:18), are NOT going to heaven, will also be physically resurrected and 'live' eternally in some part of hell.

In spite of your expressed hope of talking God into letting you live eternally with Him in his heaven it will then be too late. In other words, God himself IS NOT who will determine if you go to hell, YOU WILL, all by yourself.

You know the truth but reject it so he will simply allow YOU to eternally live WHERE YOU CHOOSE! Choose wisely.

It's not what you or I think about it that matters but what He says; it's his heaven and Jesus died on a cross to buy our ticket to heaven so that seems fair to me. We know you know the truth so think about it. And I mean get off the self agrandizing "I think" emotions and REALLY think!