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Thread: Why faith is so difficult....Cain murders Able

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    Niot really. Rather it appears that you hold that opinion of yourself whereas by simple logic I simply contend that you feel that way due to the inheritance of your parents faith and that such a spirituality does not really exist.
    Ah, 'it appears'? Another fractured collection of your "simple logic" deductions and again you're laffably wrong. My long dead parents weren't religious, I never saw either of them even open a Bible, they "went to church" for occasional weddings and funerals. So ... your simple minded logic missed again!

    Those that lack a science education are readily apparent here from many of the hill billy arguments offered by the believers. If you argue "just cause it says so in the Bible" without any common sense support logic you have immediately lost any standing as far as having the slightest bit of scientific knowledge.
    Goodness. So my life of high level electronix in the military and then in the space program was "hillbilly" level work ... at least in your simple logic mind? Fact is, at one point I was church friends with several (obviously iggerient?) space scientists who also worked at the Cape and on the Island. And, before that, we were also close family friends with a dedicated Christian nuclear engineer who worked his whole professional life with Sandia Labs making and upgrading them ol' BIG BANG things. But you may want to ask, "What did those shallow minded guys know about real science, they couldn't have had the penetrating depths and wild suppositions of your "simple logic!" ROFL!

    LOL ED, you really are a single track hoot!
    Last edited by 1hole; 07-30-2019 at 06:52 PM.

  2. #42
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    So you who taught you all about god? Anyone? You invented your story yourself? How did you decide you were so wise as to think god emanates from a goat herders tales.
    High level electronix ? Did they forget to teach you how to read, write and spell in your military schools? Want to connect your so called superior military training to your reasoning for faith or could you never connect scientific fact to tales of the goat herders? It is easy to imply then the only training you have was military electronics schools. You did not attain any real formal training in science and your working career was what? Sitting at a bench with a VOM?

    Please explain how the existence of your Sandia friend makes you gain IQ points or stature in the intellectual pursuit of reality? So if you go to the rifle range with a millionaire does that make you rich?

    Your shallow attempts at jest are just as shallow as your vague ramblings of scientific prowess. Your claim to having church friends that worked at the cape and some island is more than a little immature and ridiculous. Your church friend's scientific career translates into exactly zero scientific skills for YOU.
    Based on your logic you can claim you know all about being pregnant and having babies because you went to church with some women who are mothers. When you use such poor logic you discredit all your arguments.






    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Ah, 'it appears'? Another fractured collection of your "simple logic" deductions and again you're laffably wrong. My long dead parents weren't religious, I never saw either of them even open a Bible, they "went to church" for occasional weddings and funerals. So ... your simple minded logic missed again!



    Goodness. So my life of high level electronix in the military and then in the space program was "hillbilly" level work ... at least in your simple logic mind? Fact is, at one point I was church friends with several (obviously iggerient?) space scientists who also worked at the Cape and on the Island. And, before that, we were also close family friends with a dedicated Christian nuclear engineer who worked his whole professional life with Sandia Labs making and upgrading them ol' BIG BANG things. But you may want to ask, "What did those shallow minded guys know about real science, they couldn't have had the penetrating depths and wild suppositions of your "simple logic!" ROFL!

    LOL ED, you really are a single track hoot!
    Last edited by EDG; 08-02-2019 at 09:48 PM.
    EDG

  3. #43
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    [QUOTE=dverna;4687379]God has not spoken to man for centuries. We have His word in the Bible, but He has not shown himself to us physically or conversed with us directly. Our belief is based solely on faith. QUOTE]

    Not a criticism, a comment. God (The Father) and Jesus (The Lord/Christ) are separate entities. The Bible says that "No man has at any time seen God. The entity that Moses saw passing by the cleft in the rock was The Lord who became Christ. As for God not having spoken to man for centuries -- this is something that you can not know, and whether or not Christ has shown himself you can not know. I would not, myself, be so bold as to make those statements. However, I do agree with you that our belief is based on faith.
    Last edited by Der Gebirgsjager; 08-03-2019 at 12:10 PM.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    High level electronix ? Did they forget to teach you how to read, write and spell in your military schools?
    Well my obviously highly educated friend, most any old electronix guy could tell you that was the insider's choice of spelling the widely varied work we did. But, I'm delighted you raise such a cheep shot; it means you have run out of anything meaningful to say (that didn't take long!) and are now reduced to attempts to "expose" my lack of education and launch a personal attack on me and not my facts ... you having phun yet? ( I am! )

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Der Gebirgsjager View Post
    However, I do agree with you that our belief is based on faith.
    Very true but "faith" is usually somewhat misunderstood, even by lifelong Christians. Faith isn't magic, it's another word for TRUST. We take what we see and read of God to be true because of the evidence before us and, from that we simply place our trust in Him to continue to be true to His promises. We start small but grow in faith as we experience more and more of his loving trustworthiness.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by pmer View Post
    Cain's problem with God went beyond faith. He knew first hand that God is God yet he ultimately used Able to hurt God.
    With Cain and Adam & Eve there are two perspectives of evil. Adam & Eve affords a more personnel view of a wrong while Cain gives more of a bird's eye view of evil actions. Maybe even a glimpse of what God is up agaisnt with His adversary.

    Cain did a series of evil actions that lead to separation while Adam and Eve ultimately repented.
    Good post. And I doubt we'll ever understand why many choose the reactions to God that they do. I think Cain thought of God as just another entity, and not as a real, all-powerful God. Otherwise, he wouldn't have tried to vie with Him over such a matter as His rejection of Cain's sacrifice.

    And that story also reminds me of those professing Christianity who are in reality, all hollowed out inside by whatever forces they've been subjected to in their time, so DO things that LOOK like Christianity in action, but for which they have no real, true feelings, other than feeling good about themselves because they've immitated a real Christian. God is interested in what's in our hearts, and this is perfectly illustrated by the story of Cain's rebellion against God, and defying God's warning.

    This simple story ought to remind more of us, more often, that it's what's in our hearts that matters, even more than what we DO. And God can and often does, use the non-believers to achieve His perfect will. He's THAT powerful!

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    1. Exactly. I can understand people of today, who have no recent "evidence" of God, not believing in Him. But how can anyone who has had contact with God still be an unbeliever? It makes no sense to me.

    2. I have learned to ignore the interpretations and preaching of some pastors. They are not bad people, or stupid, or lying...they are just wrong on some things. Yet they can deliver powerful messages that make me think and help me grow my faith.

    3. It is possible to have faith in God without having to accept every doctrine of the church. My current church believes in the inerrancy of the Bible...I do not. It can be argued that faith is even stronger if we are not required to be "brain washed" and instead question...yet still believe.

    4. Faith is difficult but necessary. But good things are normally not easily acquired.
    1. Don, you ask a good question. But what you have to realize is that you're always seeking the truth. It's awfully easy for many to turn aside from the truth in order to serve and complete their own wills, satisfy their appetites, agandize their egos, and all sorts of other reasons. You're a true seeker. Many are not, and a true seeker will never understand those who turn aside from what they know and sense and have been told is what is right and true and good, and go another, more self-serving temptation that's always supplied in abundance by the Evil One and his minions. It's really just that simple.

    2. Yep. I think that's about par for the course for a lot of us. When I was young, my little church couldn't afford a really educated preacher, so we got the "fire and brimstone" type, typically. They often preached against the Catholics, and called them a cult, and even implied that their practice may well be satanic, or satanically inspired. And he claimed they worshiped Mary, and not Christ. The only trouble was that I knew some catholics, and they were at least the equal of the baptists I knew in terms of how they lived their daily lives. So, I just passed it off as something I'd find an answer to one day in the future, and left it at that. But I could NEVER have believed the idiotic claims I was subject to about Catholics. They simply weren't true. As a Baptist, I have a lot of trouble thinking of praying for Mary's intercession. And yet, I believe in the Miracle at Lourdes, where Mary came to the 3 children and revealed important messages to them. So how does that make sense? You explain it if you wish to. I'm not sure I can, other than maybe that praying to Mary and her blessed holiness that's fit to carry messages to us mortals are two different things. All I know for sure, is that God always knows what He's doing, whether we can figure it out or not. And I find that satisfying these days. Thank God the world is not truly in OUR hands!!!

    3. Many recent converts have trouble accepting the unerrancy of the Bible. It takes time, I think, for most of us to accept that. Much of the doubt, though, is caused by misunderstandings. And there are many ways to misunderstand the Bible. Look at all the sectarian rifts that we have due to differences in INTERPRETATION of the Bible! We all see through the glass darkly, and each of us has his or her own perspective from which to view each verse. How could such divergences of experience possibly glean a single interpretation from any given Bible verse or passage? It ain't gonna' happen. But we ALL have a view of what our eyes should be viewing and studying. If we were more learned, we'd be better at deciphering it all. But how will we ever GET that edification unless we continue our studies? THAT is the big question. Many get frustrated and put the Bible down. That's what I did. And I was so very wrong, and I now rue having done that. I still believed, and went to church, but I missed so much of the "meat" that we can get by studying. And nobody would discuss the Bible, so ...... mostly I just thought to myself, and wondered, and prayed for revelation. I got those revelations, or at least some of them, and boy! Could I ever have used them many years earlier!!! I cheated nobody but my own self. I've always believed, and done so despite temptations to drop it all. I just could have had so much more of the real joy of being a Christian if I'd done my homework like I should have. One of the most promising of all the verses in the Bible is "Seek and ye shall find." He doesn't promise we'll find what we want to. Just that we'll find the true answer if we simply seek with an open mind and a true heart. Seek mischief, and mischief is what we find. Seek Truth, and it will be revealed. God did NOT make the world and Truth, and then mane Truth something so obscure that few can find it. He does NOT play tricks on us. He provides us with everything we need to find the Truth IF we'll just make use of the better parts of our nature, and seek it earnestly, honestly and humbly. The haughty won't accept the Truth when they find it if it interferes with the things they WANT to find and do. I pity them. Turning away from the Maker of All Things is NOT a wise thing to do.

    4. Amen. Faith has to be worked toward and worked for. But it is FAR from being "unfindable." And thank Almighty God for that! We serve the most loving, kind, wise God that could ever exist. What a wonder He truly is!

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    I think you might be using the term "unbeliever" in place of "rejector", and I don't think arrogance plays into it at all.

    1. An unbeliever is defined as one who has rejected God, so actually, the terms are not only synonyms, but equivalents.

    Ponder great big chunks of human history: Your firstborn son died of typhus; your third was stillborn and your wife died with it; your crops were devoured by locusts; the barbarian horde appeared on the horizon, and, not finding any grain to pillage, made off with your only remaining teenage daughter after beating you senseless and allowing the funnier ones among them to sodomize you by the warm firelight of your burning house for a couple hours.

    2. God lets some of us suffer so that we might show others the true value of faith and trust and hope. God made us. We are His, always. He can do with us as it pleases Him toward making His plans for us come true. He even uses the profane and non-believing in achieving this. And when we err, which is often, He sends us situations in which we are calculated to learn and repent. He cares for us more than you'll ever allow yourself to admit. And in more ways than you'll ever in your wildest dreams imagine. If you're referring to Job, and his trials, this was a battle between God and Satan, and he showed the real value and worth of faith, hope and trust. But if you don't want the message God has provided to you, then pass on by, and go your own way. You don't need my permission to do that, but you need to know that it's YOU who has decided to do that, and it is NOT nearly as funny as you think it is. But that's on you, not me.

    So let's say God DOES show up in a blaze of radiant splendor - you don't deny his existence, but you call B.S. on his job as a boss, since it seems that "faith and adherence to The Plan" requires you to receive an endless series of kicks to the balls and be happy about it. "Sorry bro - if you really were all that and a bag of chips, I'd still have all that and wouldn't be starving 'cuz I'd have a bag of chips to eat."


    3. If you reject God's power over you, and superiority to you, let's see YOU create your own little universe! It doesn't even have to be as big as this one to impress us all.

    If our problem is an inability to understand God - well, it has been said that a failing of the student to comprehend is a failure of the teacher to transmit the information. God's either a bad teacher, or he made the mistake of creating sentient beings that don't want to be pawns when what he really wants is worker ants - either way, lots of room for a vote of "no confidence" in the Perfect Being theory. And if you want chips, they're available at the stores, but you even have to work for THEM. Why not work a little to really understand your Maker and Judge???

    A certain amount of atheism must stem from looking at the choices as (a.) there is a guy at the wheel, but he's drunk out of his mind AND texting, or (b.) there is nobody at the wheel.

    4. Once again, you're not nearly as funny as you fancy yourself to be. If that's the way atheists look at the pursuit of understanding God, then they're looking for a sugar daddy who'll acede to their every whim and temptation. Such a god does NOT exist anywhere, and I believe you know that. His name is really Satan, and if you follow him, as you lead us to believe you do, then ..... you have no right to complain when the check comes due. And when you wake up after dying, and find you've been foolish ...... don't blame us here who've tried to "reason" with you, if that's what you call responding to trashy mocking.
    Slug, you're so much better than you portray yourself as being in these posts. And you've far more intelligent than you like to appear. Inside us all, is the Spirit of Life that God breathed into humanity when he made the first man, Adam. And with that Spirit, comes a vague recognition of whence it came, and the nature of the One who gave it to us.

    You can pack that away and bury it, or you can use it. Your choice, and nobody here is going to make that choice for you. You're responsible for all the choices you make, including being simply wrong, or hard-headed, or brash, or fearful, or whatever. I sincerely wish you well. God be with you.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    You are betting on nothing but goat herders yarns.
    Nope. We're betting on what we've known and experienced. Those "goat herder's yarns" are just for our edification and solace. But you don't WANT to realize that's true, so ... you mock. Your day will come. One day, after you die, you'll awaken, and it will be extremely clear what you've done, and why. God always sees to it that all eventually know the Truth, whether they've ever sought it or not. But you'll wait until then, when it's too late to change anything, to repent. God pays us our wages, eventually, IF we've earned them. The rest He gives to Satan, to live in eternity with him. That's just how it works, and it works this way for everyone. God always knows who's sought Him, and who hasn't.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    Take it from people who know as in you? jajajajajaja -
    It is very apparent that you know very little of science other than a internet article now and then. Why don't you undertake a serious pursuit of science? You would find out it is real whether you believe it or not.
    Science is the same from one end of the universe to the other and it is the same for all men everywhere. The laws of physics apply to the far parts of the universe just like they apply on planet earth. The laws of physics apply to you and will ALWAYS apply to you and all your Bible beating cohorts whether you like it or not.
    Your Bible is nothing more than a collection of oral tales handed down through the ages.
    Should all your Bibles be destroyed the entire basis of your faith would vanish. There is no other physical basis for your faith. In contrast the laws of physics are part of the universe and are easily verified. You can destroy the human race yet the physical relationships between mass, energy, temperature, velocity and distance will never change. You can claim that there is some mysterious spiritual existence but about all you will get from that claim in most cases is a snicker.

    The real basis for your faith is the inner despair that exists because you cannot deal with the inevitability of death. Your faith in many ways is nothing but a coping mechanism that gives you a the promise of eternal life in exchange for compliance with a specified form of behavior. So while you are only concerned with your own selfish goal of eternal life the members of your faith contribute little to the advancement of life in the here and now. In great contrast, scientists and practitioners of applied science have provided most of the inventions, new materials and processes that make up the modern world.
    We all know that MRI, cat scans, X rays did not originate in your Bible. Small pox and polio were not eliminated by your faith. The computer you are using to argue your point was the product of thousands of scientists and engineers. I have worked in that industry for many years. None of it is attributable to your god. In fact many of the engineers and scientists come from other regions of the planet that have no faith or their religion has no connection to the Abrahamic religions. Yet these godless scientists and engineers take advantage of science and the laws of physics to advance mankind on a daily basis. Your faith contributes nothing similar, it never has and it never will. All you faith stricken people can do is worry about dying.
    EDG, if you REALLY knew "scientists," you'd know that there is currently a very large and growing belief among scientists, that God and CHrist are both real, and that the Bible does indeed record it all. And there is currently NOTHING in science that can or ever will disprove the least jot or tilttle in the Bible. On the contrary, the more we discover, the more the Bible's words are PROVEN to be correct, and distinctly possible, even to Jesus's having passed through a door to see his followers in the upper room after His crucifixion.

    But you've already made your mind up, so you go on believing what you want, and never search further for more modern developments. You really need to keep up, sir!

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    But science is universal whether you are Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or a non believer.

    1. Not necessarily. Many have beliefs that defy some of what science has come up with today. Nothing in humankind's masses is "universal." Disparity is more common among men than universiality. I don't think this needs elaboration.

    To really know and understand the universe it takes knowing much more than the Bible. Relying on 2000 year old goat herders oral tales is not much of an education for today's world.

    2. Again, this simply isn't so. More and more, science is proving that the stories in the Bible is, or at least might be fully 100% true. But again, you haven't looked for that, so again, you haven't found it. But it's true nevertheless. And do you not find it interesting that ONLY in the Bible do we find a story of creation that EXACTLY matches the order that science believes and can all but prove, that it all happened in. The EXACT order! No other early source has even approached the truths (small "t") that are contained in the Bible. And it was written FAR before we had any information that science has given us today. Did you in fact know that the Catholic church owns and fund and operates a huge observatory in order to study the stars, and scientist/priests to man it and study and contemplate the cosmos even further than we now have? So if you think you and others like you are the sole repository of scientific truths/beliefs/theories, you are sadly and badly mistaken. Christians have always searched for the simple (or complex) Truth in any matter, whether it be in the words and teachings of the Christian Bible, or in and among the cosmos itself. You really need to check things out before posting such untruths.

    Since you want to quote something old and irrelevant I will quote some logic that even older and yet always relevant - especially the last line.
    If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to,Then He is not omnipotent.
    If He is able, but not willing.Then He is malevolent.
    If He is both able and willing, Then whence cometh evil.
    If He is neither able nor willingThen why call Him God?

    3. Once again, you're painting a picture in these silly questions, of a god who's not God, but some idea of a big sugar daddy in the sky who gives you what you want, and protects you from the consequences of your foolishness, and coddles you in his warm, "caring" arms. REAL Gods are more like a good parent, who disciplines us, and whose purposes extend far beyond our own limited and meager appetites here on earth. So you're looking for a God who does not, and never will, exist. And if that's the kind of "god" you're looking for, no wonder you haven't found Him!
    God be with you, and find a way to open your eyes, and soften your hardened heart.

  12. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKShootist View Post
    An interesting thread for me as an agnostic atheist part time Buddhist and and occasional follower of science. As I read the OP which treats the story of Cain and Abel as an absolute historical fact my certainty is that the story of Cain and Abel is just that, a story. It didn't happen. Neither was the world flooded nor Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt, the Red Sea was not parted, just to name a few. They are all wonderful tales to inspire people to believe in a God that is alleged to be eternally unchanging and yet who, if the Bible is to be believed, changes significantly. A bit like the conundrum "Can God make a weight so heavy he cannot lift it?"

    People, believers, often speak of proof in the Bible. There is, I understand, proof of a person called Jesus existing at the time supposed. There is proof that people spoke of miracles and sermons. There can be no proof whatsoever of most of the Old Testament any more than Greek Mythology can be proved by the fact that there does exist a Mount Olympus.
    If God is truly God, why could he not perform the things you enumerate? If He made the universe and all in it, why could He not do whatever He wishes, for whatever reasons He finds sufficient? If he can make the universe and all in it, and create all the laws and elements of science, that we are really just beginning to understand, wouldn't doing those things be child's play for Him?

    If you really believe in nothing beyond what we can see, touch, taste, feel or smell, how do you explain the existence of the universe? Was it just a cosmic accident? Is it just some dramlike illusion? How do you explain all the order and disorder that is everywhere to be observed? Is that just happenstanve? What makes you believe that? Is it not more likely that it was created? And if it was created, who or what did it? Most of us have a sense of awareness within us, of something that is much, much bigger and more powerful and knowledgeable than we are, that defies explanation. I believe that comes from the Breath of Life that God breathed into us when he made Adam, and each of us since, has that same sense or inate "knowledge" of whence we came. How do you explain this, if indeed you remember when you had it? I'm not mocking you or putting you down. These are simply questions that naturally arise from what you've stated here. I've yet to hear an agnostic or atheist give a good explanation of why they do NOT believe. They simply state their doubts, and that's that. There's no way to argue with a doubt, but info CAN be provided that might bring a doubter to understand belief, even if they don't accept it for themselves.

    We believers know what we believe and why, even if many of us can't readily or satisfactorily explain it to the satisfaction of a doubter. We are quite assured of our beliefs, and we are not crazy, nor stupid, nor uninformed. But as can be seen above, many who believe in "science," do not even themselves really understand it. They only understand what they've found to serve their position. I can't really call agnosticism a "belief," because a doubt is not truly a belief, but a LACK of belief. But each of us must find our own way through this world, and the search, or lack therof, for Truth and God is just one of the matters that we have to consider. And in today's world of appetites of all kinds being served, it's awfully easy to get caught up in those, and abandon completely the search for real Truth or for God. That being true, it's no wonder so many have adopted the "belief" in non-belief - a contradiction in terms in and of its own self. But common, nevertheless. (sigh) So many people. So little time.

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    Well, we've done a fine job of turning this thread into a mud-slinging contest. There are some of us seeking more light, and some still satisfied in darkness. So be it. But Christ never gives up on any of us. NEVER! And any who do not presently believe, who finally find the Truth and the Light, are welcome, and no disparagements will ever be hurled at you by the faithful. If any do, you'll know they're not the truly faithful. And all of Heaven rejoices when a "lost soul" finally comes to understand, and believe. So the door's always open for any who'll enter in. It doesn't matter what you've said or done in the past. Once you truly believe, and confess, and give yourself to Christ, all is forgiven, and you get to start anew, with a clean slate. After all, who knows more of the true value of salvation than those who've walked the streets of the other side, and found them less than fully satisfying? Christ loves each one of us, even those who mock us. Many don't LIKE that, but that's how it is. We want retribution, when we should be wanting redemption for our fellow men. Christianity ain't easy, but it's always, always, always, so very much WORTH it!

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    I'm sure EDG, UK, et al, are "good" guys who are only trying to lead us into their self-satisfied paths to h377.

    They mean well but they know nothing about spiritual things but they confidenty proclaim there is no such thing as the unseen forces of Satan. They hold tightly to scientists for all answers because they see scientists but can't "see" God. That's neither wise nor scientific.

    We can't "see" gravity or wind either but, by the visible effects we know it's there; ditto the hands of God. I can't "see" my Lord but I sure can see the tracks of his faithfullness in the lives of me and many others so no one who knows absolutely nothing of spiritual things can tell me that He's not there!

    The Holy Bible tells us all we need to know about invisible spiritual powers, both good and evil, living around us. The unique continued existence of the Jewish people and the proven trustworthiness of God's written words are, of themselves, sufficent proofs of the Bible.

    Just food for thought; if Christians are wrong we still live a good life and loose nothing. On the other hand, if atheists are wrong they lose everything!

    Given the impossibly difficult scientific challenges of how things we see came into being demands more blind faith from atheists than I can attain. The only viable answer is that God did it all!
    Last edited by 1hole; 08-06-2019 at 04:14 PM.

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    Still preaching Christianity and the Bible as an insurance policy?
    That is sort of a low moral motivation for a so called faith in a benevolent being dispensing justice to all mankind don't you think?
    Back to gravity and wind - You are displaying your ignorance of science by your statements
    Both gravity and wind physical phenomenons that can easily be measured. Your faith and all of its spiritual artifacts only exist in your imagination because not one of them can be measured.
    Helen Keller and Ray Charles could have told you that. I suppose you think the entire existence of a blind person does not happen?
    Gravity and wind can both move physical matter. Your faith cannot move a grain of sand and you cannot prove it can move a grain of sand.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    I'm sure EDG, UK, et al, are "good" guys who are only trying to lead us into their self-satisfied paths to h377.

    They mean well but they know nothing about spiritual things but they confidenty proclaim there is no such thing as the unseen forces of Satan. They hold tightly to scientists for all answers because they see scientists but can't "see" God. That's neither wise nor scientific.

    We can't "see" gravity or wind either but, by the visible effects we know it's there; ditto the hands of God. I can't "see" my Lord but I sure can see the tracks of his faithfullness in the lives of me and many others so no one who knows absolutely nothing of spiritual things can tell me that He's not there!

    The Holy Bible tells us all we need to know about invisible spiritual powers, both good and evil, living around us. The unique continued existence of the Jewish people and the proven trustworthiness of God's written words are, of themselves, sufficent proofs of the Bible.

    Just food for thought; if Christians are wrong we still live a good life and loose nothing. On the other hand, if atheists are wrong they lose everything!

    Given the impossibly difficult scientific challenges of how things we see came into being demands more blind faith from atheists than I can attain. The only viable answer is that God did it all!
    EDG

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    God cannot be proved via science. We have faith, because of our experience with him. You can no more prove God's love any more than you can prove you mother loved you. However love of either God or your mother does have an effect on our lives of which we are certain. Yes, I know that makes faith based on subjective experience rather than provable facts. But that is why we call it faith.

    I am not an ignorant uneducated man. I will put my educational resume up alongside that of anyone here. Yet, I am a devoted practicing Christian. My faith in Christ is what sustains me in every aspect of my life
    Yes, but it's very convenient to have all we now know of science supporting belief. It'll only take us right up to the threshold of belief, but not over it. The rest MUST be made up of faith. And without the "conversion experience," nobody would cross over, I think. That feeling, when you KNOW you're in the presence of God, and that He's reaching out to you to come to Him, and accept His wonderful salvation and Love, is one that conquers all doubts and fears, and coming forward and accepting it all is THE most important step a person can ever make. It's truly beyond words to describe. But it's very, very real, and not just some figment of our imaginations. You can take THAT to the BANK! I feel sorry for those who've never had it, or turned away from it.

    But Christ does not, and has NEVER meant for anyone to be damned. Only they can make that decision for themselves. And it's a shame that so many do.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    Still preaching Christianity and the Bible as an insurance policy?
    That is sort of a low moral motivation for a so called faith in a benevolent being dispensing justice to all mankind don't you think?
    Back to gravity and wind - You are displaying your ignorance of science by your statements
    Both gravity and wind physical phenomenons that can easily be measured. Your faith and all of its spiritual artifacts only exist in your imagination because not one of them can be measured.
    Helen Keller and Ray Charles could have told you that. I suppose you think the entire existence of a blind person does not happen?
    Gravity and wind can both move physical matter. Your faith cannot move a grain of sand and you cannot prove it can move a grain of sand.
    Well now, just what do you think a REAL God should be like????

  18. #58
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    What should a real god be like? That is so easy.
    A real god is omnipotent right? Well then why would a real god bother to put his subjects on trial?
    There is no real point in judging his subjects when the god can simply make his subjects do and think as his wishes. There is truly no real point logically to all that you believe. If you do not have logic then you do not really have thought. You are just a sheep. As every farmer knows sheep are the dumbest large animals on a farm. In comparison goats and hogs are brain surgeons compared to sheep.

    Why don't you try answering the questions posed?
    Your faith cannot move a grain of sand.
    Are you a believer only for an implied insurance policy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackwater View Post
    Well now, just what do you think a REAL God should be like????
    EDG

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Char-Gar View Post
    Science supporting faith is not an argument I will ever make. It convinces nobody and therefore has no value. Hell fire and damnation is also a vain approach. Fear is not a motivator of faith, love is. In I gave up trying to convince folks to accept what they have already rejected as it is a vain thing in general. Humans are moved to faith by a deep seated emptiness in our hearts and souls. We are created to be connected to our creator and when that connection is broken we feel it, even though we not know why we feel the void in our souls. "We love Him because He first loved us.".
    Amen to that Char-Gar...
    ...Speak softly & carry a big stick...

  20. #60
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    Several have implied that the Holy Spirit is how the Lord speaks to man. Is this conscience or something distinct?

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