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Thread: Why faith is so difficult....Cain murders Able

  1. #21
    Boolit Master
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    EDG, the question before us is not what innerlecshul lock-step scientists say, we all know most of that.

    BUT, fact is, neither you nor your trusty scientists know anything meaningful about the Bible and nothing at all about anything spiritual. It's difficult - impossible - for us who do know to take people who are totally ignorant of the subject serious.

  2. #22
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    Take it from people who know as in you? jajajajajaja -
    It is very apparent that you know very little of science other than a internet article now and then. Why don't you undertake a serious pursuit of science? You would find out it is real whether you believe it or not.
    Science is the same from one end of the universe to the other and it is the same for all men everywhere. The laws of physics apply to the far parts of the universe just like they apply on planet earth. The laws of physics apply to you and will ALWAYS apply to you and all your Bible beating cohorts whether you like it or not.
    Your Bible is nothing more than a collection of oral tales handed down through the ages.
    Should all your Bibles be destroyed the entire basis of your faith would vanish. There is no other physical basis for your faith. In contrast the laws of physics are part of the universe and are easily verified. You can destroy the human race yet the physical relationships between mass, energy, temperature, velocity and distance will never change. You can claim that there is some mysterious spiritual existence but about all you will get from that claim in most cases is a snicker.

    The real basis for your faith is the inner despair that exists because you cannot deal with the inevitability of death. Your faith in many ways is nothing but a coping mechanism that gives you a the promise of eternal life in exchange for compliance with a specified form of behavior. So while you are only concerned with your own selfish goal of eternal life the members of your faith contribute little to the advancement of life in the here and now. In great contrast, scientists and practitioners of applied science have provided most of the inventions, new materials and processes that make up the modern world.
    We all know that MRI, cat scans, X rays did not originate in your Bible. Small pox and polio were not eliminated by your faith. The computer you are using to argue your point was the product of thousands of scientists and engineers. I have worked in that industry for many years. None of it is attributable to your god. In fact many of the engineers and scientists come from other regions of the planet that have no faith or their religion has no connection to the Abrahamic religions. Yet these godless scientists and engineers take advantage of science and the laws of physics to advance mankind on a daily basis. Your faith contributes nothing similar, it never has and it never will. All you faith stricken people can do is worry about dying.



    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    EDG, the question before us is not what innerlecshul lock-step scientists say, we all know most of that.

    BUT, fact is, neither you nor your trusty scientists know anything meaningful about the Bible and nothing at all about anything spiritual. It's difficult - impossible - for us who do know to take people who are totally ignorant of the subject serious.
    EDG

  3. #23
    Boolit Master
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    Of course I know "Highwaymen", and Cloud Atlas is a neat bit of fiction. You may want to check into your statement that "The laws of physics apply to the far parts of the universe just like they apply on planet earth. " current research shows this is likely not the case. How about parallel universes, string theory, and bubble theory? Where does physics stop and metaphysics begin for you?
    As far as living/dying, all who live will face a physical death we all accept this, but do you fear death?
    I digress, this discussion is about faith, or lack there of. Here it is, take it, leave it, or scoff at it.

    1Co 2:12-16

    What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
    The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

    A mind set on worldly things can only comprehend things of this world, a worldly mind can not comprehend spiritual things. Therefore all you can do is ridicule, and scoff what you can't understand, while belittling and berating those who do understand spiritual matters.

  4. #24
    Boolit Master
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    Oh yes how about all those other element of physics - do they not exist in your current universe?
    They exist in everyone else's - both near and far. A parallel universe? Is it really parallel or is your universe the parallel universe?
    You cannot get around to addressing the purpose of your faith can you? It merely exists as a path to everlasting life and the avoidance of death. As such it is only a coping mechanism for the frightened men whose fears do not permit them to understand much of anything outside the bible. Clearly if you had been born in Saudi Arabia you would be nothing more than another muslim. This fact shows how superficial any faith can be since you practice a particular faith only by accident of birth. Is that not a true statement? While you can be born into hundreds of faiths around the globe there is only one body of physical science and the laws of physics are are the same for everyone regardless of faith. No matter how superior you think your spirituality is, it is not universal. But science is universal whether you are Christian, Hindu, Buddhist or a non believer. To really know and understand the universe it takes knowing much more than the Bible. Relying on 2000 year old goat herders oral tales is not much of an education for today's world.

    Since you want to quote something old and irrelevant I will quote some logic that even older and yet always relevant - especially the last line.

    If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to

    Then He is not omnipotent.

    If He is able, but not willing

    Then He is malevolent.

    If He is both able and willing

    Then whence cometh evil.

    If He is neither able nor willing

    Then why call Him God?




    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    Of course I know "Highwaymen", and Cloud Atlas is a neat bit of fiction. You may want to check into your statement that "The laws of physics apply to the far parts of the universe just like they apply on planet earth. " current research shows this is likely not the case. How about parallel universes, string theory, and bubble theory? Where does physics stop and metaphysics begin for you?
    As far as living/dying, all who live will face a physical death we all accept this, but do you fear death?
    I digress, this discussion is about faith, or lack there of. Here it is, take it, leave it, or scoff at it.

    1Co 2:12-16

    What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words. The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
    The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, for, “Who has known the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

    A mind set on worldly things can only comprehend things of this world, a worldly mind can not comprehend spiritual things. Therefore all you can do is ridicule, and scoff what you can't understand, while belittling and berating those who do understand spiritual matters.
    EDG

  5. #25
    Boolit Master
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    It's already evident what side of the question you fall on EDG. Find peace and be blessed.

  6. #26
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    An interesting thread for me as an agnostic atheist part time Buddhist and and occasional follower of science. As I read the OP which treats the story of Cain and Abel as an absolute historical fact my certainty is that the story of Cain and Abel is just that, a story. It didn't happen. Neither was the world flooded nor Lot's wife turned into a pillar of salt, the Red Sea was not parted, just to name a few. They are all wonderful tales to inspire people to believe in a God that is alleged to be eternally unchanging and yet who, if the Bible is to be believed, changes significantly. A bit like the conundrum "Can God make a weight so heavy he cannot lift it?"

    People, believers, often speak of proof in the Bible. There is, I understand, proof of a person called Jesus existing at the time supposed. There is proof that people spoke of miracles and sermons. There can be no proof whatsoever of most of the Old Testament any more than Greek Mythology can be proved by the fact that there does exist a Mount Olympus.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    Since you want to quote something old and irrelevant I will quote some logic that even older and yet always relevant - especially the last line.

    If God is willing to prevent evil, but is not able to
    Then He is not omnipotent.
    If He is able, but not willing
    Then He is malevolent.
    If He is both able and willing
    Then whence cometh evil.
    If He is neither able nor willing
    Then why call Him God?
    In the interests of impartiality I think I can put a hole in that one seeing as it's out of the bag of 'ifs'. For a God to be omnipotent has has to be everywhere and know everything that has happened, is happening and will happen. I could suggest that there is only one way He could do that which is to BE everyone and everything. How can He know evil without being evil and receiving evil? A worthy believe might be that God has split himself into myriad parts in order to be omnipotent and that evil done is God doing it to himself that he might then also know goodness. How might God know of every sparrow that falls without he IS every sparrow? How can he truly know of the child abuse unless He is both the abused and the abuser? A deeper conversation might be how can anyone be 'good' if there is no 'evil'? Perhaps I'll leave the one for another time.

  8. #28
    Boolit Master
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    Usually the believers try to bail themselves out of the Epicurean Paradox by claiming that god gave man free will and from that free will man is a source of evil.
    I disagree since everyone of all faiths plus the non-believers have free will. Even cats and dogs have free will - it is nothing special from god.
    As far as every sparrow goes, it is apparent that many believers also attribute poor time management skills to god if he bothers to monitor the activities of every little animal, insect and bacteria. Does he also know what happens to every living thing plants, seeds and spores? Even viruses? Every little fish and plankton in the whole wide ocean? If he does not monitor the existence of everything where is the cut off. Where does god draw the line for those that are monitored and those that are ignored?
    It seems that omnipotence would get old and petty in a hurry.
    While my argument is deliberately ridiculous the assertions of the believers are even more ridiculous since they seriously want you to believe them in spite of the goofy logic.

    Quote Originally Posted by UKShootist View Post
    In the interests of impartiality I think I can put a hole in that one seeing as it's out of the bag of 'ifs'. For a God to be omnipotent has has to be everywhere and know everything that has happened, is happening and will happen. I could suggest that there is only one way He could do that which is to BE everyone and everything. How can He know evil without being evil and receiving evil? A worthy believe might be that God has split himself into myriad parts in order to be omnipotent and that evil done is God doing it to himself that he might then also know goodness. How might God know of every sparrow that falls without he IS every sparrow? How can he truly know of the child abuse unless He is both the abused and the abuser? A deeper conversation might be how can anyone be 'good' if there is no 'evil'? Perhaps I'll leave the one for another time.
    Last edited by EDG; 07-29-2019 at 09:04 AM.
    EDG

  9. #29
    Boolit Master
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    I am surprised you bailed out after the Epicurean Paradox.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    It's already evident what side of the question you fall on EDG. Find peace and be blessed.
    EDG

  10. #30
    Boolit Master


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    EDG,

    I believe there is a God, the Creator, but not the "whole ball of wax" that most believers attest to.

    I believe He is not perfect...and by that I mean He does not make perfect decisions or creations every time. I believe He tires His best and some things work out better than others.

    I believe He is powerful but do not believe He is all powerful.

    I do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible but still find it a useful book in most cases.

    I believe in the story of Jesus as there it too much evidence that He existed and Jesus is even recognized by the Muslim religions. I believed Jesus performed miracles because he needed to prove He was the Son of God. Otherwise, He would have been another crack pot and could not have amassed the following He did in a short time. So, in my mind, Jesus was and is. It was dealing with the truth of Jesus that brought me to accept God after being an atheist for over five decades.

    Most believers need to buy into the "whole ball of wax". It is how they were raised. For many, it is the easy way...no critical thinking required. It helps strengthen their faith. Nothing really "wrong" if it works for them, but for me it does not work...too many unanswered questions and inconsistencies.

    I accept that man may not understand how God works but I do not accept that as a rationale to justify every unanswered question there is about God and how things happen or do not happen.

    An atheist that uses extremes to rationalize there is no God is just as narrow minded as a believer who is unable or unwilling to question.

    In my case, my "comfort zone" is at neither extreme, but leaning very heavily on the side of God.

    I am a engineer and consider myself rooted in science, logic and reality...and I believe in God. I find it appalling that so many believers cling to the 6-24 days of Creation...or some of the other "facts" in the Bible that are not facts. But it is not necessary to believe what others believe to believe in God.

    If by chance I am wrong, and the extreme conservative beliefs that are preached are proven correct, it will have no bearing in the end. He will understand my "arrogance" was based on what I thought was true. I have accepted Jesus and He will forgive me.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    EDG,

    I believe there is a God, the Creator, but not the "whole ball of wax" that most believers attest to.

    I believe He is not perfect...and by that I mean He does not make perfect decisions or creations every time. I believe He tires His best and some things work out better than others.

    I believe He is powerful but do not believe He is all powerful.

    I do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible but still find it a useful book in most cases.

    I believe in the story of Jesus as there it too much evidence that He existed and Jesus is even recognized by the Muslim religions. I believed Jesus performed miracles because he needed to prove He was the Son of God. Otherwise, He would have been another crack pot and could not have amassed the following He did in a short time. So, in my mind, Jesus was and is. It was dealing with the truth of Jesus that brought meto accept God after being an atheist for over five decades.

    Most believers need to buy into the "whole ball of wax". It is how they were raised. For many, it is the easy way...no critical thinking required. It helps strengthen their faith. Nothing really "wrong" if it works for them, but for me it does not work...to many unanswered questions and inconsistencies.

    I accept that man may not understand how God works but I do not accept that as a rationale to justify every unanswered question there is about God and how things happen or do not happen.

    An atheist that uses extremes to rationalize there is no God is just as narrow minded as a believer who is unable or unwilling to question.

    In my case, my "comfort zone" is at neither extreme, but leaning very heavily on the side of God.

    I am a engineer and consider myself rooted in science, logic and reality...and I believe in God. I find it appalling that so many believers cling to the 6-24 days of Creation...or some of the other "facts" in the Bible that are not facts. But it is not necessary to believe what others believe to believe in God.

    If by chance I am wrong, and the extreme conservative beliefs that are preached are proven correct, it will have no bearing in the end. He will understand my "arrogance" was based on what I thought was true. I have accepted Jesus and He will forgive me.
    It's a shame that there is no facility to set up a vote to see how many Christians here believe you are doomed to eternal hell for your beliefs. They sound pretty fair to me though (your beliefs that is).

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    Fortunately, Christians will not be doing the judging.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    Fortunately, Christians will not be doing the judging.
    Deep. Very deep.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master
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    ED, your calm and well reasoned arguments are secured in your ego and total confidence that no one can know about anything, especially including spiritual things, than you. That's some heavy-duty conceit!

    Your confidence in appraising the lack of education in science of people you don't know is astonishing.

    Your confident guesses that what drives Christians is a fear of death is not only wrong but not even in the broad realm of truth; we fear physical death - and spiritual hell - less than anyone!

    You making a string of confident strawman statements of the motives and mind sets of Christians you've never met, never mind known, displays a personal arrogance beyond my comprehension.

    If you really believe humanity's long advance has been driven by atheists you are not only ignorant of spiritual things but history as well.

    If you think followers of God are behind the evils of history you must not know anything at all about Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mau, Pol Pot, Tojo, Hussain, et al. Historical fact is, the most bloodthirsty tyrants of history have always been, in concept, humanists who rejected any thoughts of God because they were sure that might is more important than right.

    You prove "There is no one as blind as he who will not see."
    Last edited by 1hole; 07-29-2019 at 10:41 AM.

  15. #35
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    Niot really. Rather it appears that you hold that opinion of yourself whereas by simple logic I simply contend that you feel that way due to the inheritance of your parents faith and that such a spirituality does not really exist.
    Those that lack a science education are readily apparent here from many of the hill billy arguments offered by the believers. If you argue "just cause it says so in the Bible" without any common sense support logic you have immediately lost any standing as far as having the slightest bit of scientific knowledge.
    Sure you fear physical death and you fear it more than anyone. The fear of death is the only reason that you pay any attention to your god. You want to make a deal for a long comfortable eternity. Without that pay off you would not bother. Go sit with a terminally ill Christian and you will find the angriest and most fearful of people.
    I think many of the most tyrannical and murderous were also purveyors of some god. The Catholic Church by transmission of disease and by participation in conquest managed to kill a majority of native peoples in the Americas. Even so since you do not believe in all gods you are also an atheist to all religions except your own. That puts you and your religious leaders in the same boat with the Hitler's, Stalins and Maos.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    ED, your calm and well reasoned arguments are secured in your ego and total confidence that no one can know about anything, especially including spiritual things, than you. That's some heavy-duty conciete!

    Your confidence in appraising the lack of education in science of people you don't know is astonishing.

    Your confident guesses that what drives Christians is a fear of death is not only wrong but not even in the broad realm of truth; we fear physical death - and spiritual hell - less than anyone!

    If you really believe humanity's long advance has been driven by atheists you are not only ignorant of spiritual things but history also.

    If you think followers of God are behind the evils of history you must not know anything about Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, Mau, Pol Pot, Tojo, Hussain, et al. Fact is, the most bloodthirsty tyrants of history have always been, in concept, humanists who rejected any thoughts of God because they were sure that might is more important than right.

    "There is no one as blind as he who will not see."
    EDG

  16. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    Fortunately, Christians will not be doing the judging.
    Correct. The 'judgement" is quite simple, in fact there is only ONE sin (rejection of Jesus as savior) that sends anyone to hell and each of us make that decision for ourselves, not God - see John 3:18. Not many Christians grasp that fact and no heathens at all.

    We earn rewards or degrees of eternal punishment and judged for what we do in this life but no human earns any part of his way into heaven.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by UKShootist View Post
    It's a shame that there is no facility to set up a vote to see how many Christians here believe you are doomed to eternal hell for your beliefs. They sound pretty fair to me though (your beliefs that is).
    I do not fear Christians or their judgment of my beliefs. I am much closer to them than an atheist or agnostic. I am blessed to have friends that hold a wide spectrum of views (atheists to Evangelicals) and are able to discuss these issues. If God is the deity I believe He is, He will judge me knowing what is in my mind and my heart. He does not expect perfection from us but He expects that we believe in Him and that Jesus is the way to salvation. There is a tendency to make it more complex than it really is.

    I cannot prove either side of the argument and after much reading do not believe anyone can. Faith, in various degrees, is necessary to accept God. The more "perfect", infallible, omnipresent, all powerful someone wants to believe God is, the more faith required. My faith may be viewed inadequate by most Christians but it is there and the only opinions that matter are mine and God's.

    I offer my views in the hopes that non-believers searching for answers are not driven away by Christians who think their way is the only way to God. Christians have split into so many sects to justify that their way is the right way...it is ludicrous. They cannot interpret the Bible consistently. But all Christians agree that accepting Jesus is necessary for eternal life. And accepting Jesus does not require a huge leap of faith. It is the logical starting point for a non-believer IMHO. At least is was for me.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    I cannot prove either side of the argument and after much reading do not believe anyone can. Faith, in various degrees, is necessary to accept God. The more "perfect", infallible, omnipresent, all powerful someone wants to believe God is, the more faith required. My faith may be viewed inadequate by most Christians but it is there and the only opinions that matter are mine and God's.

    I offer my views in the hopes that non-believers searching for answers are not driven away by Christians who think their way is the only way to God. Christians have split into so many sects to justify that their way is the right way...it is ludicrous. They cannot interpret the Bible consistently. But all Christians agree that accepting Jesus is necessary for eternal life. And accepting Jesus does not require a huge leap of faith. It is the logical starting point for a non-believer IMHO. At least is was for me.
    I don't understand why it's so difficult for many Christians to allow another's faith to grow in their own time, and to what extent it will. We are not all in the same time and place in our faith (spiritual life) at the same time. We are however, joined in our faith in Christ. Thank you for letting others know that I, or you, don't have to know the full mysteries of the scriptures, and that we aren't granted the right to judge or brothers and sisters! I was once a condemning Christian myself and try and avoid my past mistakes now days. Just as a plant needs room to grow, believers need room to grow!

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    ... (Bible) is not comparable to a physics book. If the Bible is the only book you rely on you have little chance of knowing what is real.
    Those who reject the Bible while clinging tightly to a physics book are leaning on a weak reed.

  20. #40
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    No not at all. You are the typical judgmental Christian leaning on goat herders tale that only go back a few thousand years. In the mean time it appears you have never studied physics or much of anything else that require logic and critical thinking. You are like the other run of the mill believers. You believe the same things that you learned from your parents. Had you been born in Saudi Arabia would be just another fundie muslim.
    Like I have said before destroy all the Bibles and your faith would vanish. Your faith has no basis outside of that old book.
    In contrast the laws of physics exist and can be proved whether there is a human race or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Those who reject the Bible while clinging tightly to a physics book are leaning on a weak reed.
    EDG

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