WidenersLee PrecisionADvertise hereRotoMetals2
Inline FabricationRepackboxTitan Reloading

Page 1 of 7 1234567 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 129

Thread: Why faith is so difficult....Cain murders Able

  1. #1
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Northern Michigan
    Posts
    3,973

    Why faith is so difficult....Cain murders Able

    Cain's offering of the goods from his harvest were rejected by God. God had deemed Cain's offering unacceptable because Cain did not present his offering with a pure heart.

    The angered Cain was warned by God, "if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door, it desires to have you, but you must rule over it."

    God spoke directly to Cain and yet Cain did not have faith. How many of us would ignore God if He were to speak to us directly? Would we not obey and wouldn't any doubt about God be completely eliminated?

    At this point in time, there are likely less than 100 people on earth and yet Cain proceeds to murder his brother. Did Cain not believe that God was omnipresent and did Cain believe that God would be deceived? And yet Cain tried to do just that.

    So here is a man who has spoken with God and still does not have faith in God, or His power.

    God has not spoken to man for centuries. We have His word in the Bible, but He has not shown himself to us physically or conversed with us directly. Our belief is based solely on faith.

    I wonder just how arrogant Cain must have been. Much more arrogant than the worst atheists we have today. He saw and spoke to God and rejected God's way.
    Last edited by dverna; 07-16-2019 at 08:54 AM.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Jun 2014
    Posts
    218
    Similarly, when Jesus was baptized by John the baptist, to paraphrase the passage, the clouds parted and God spoke saying this is my son whom I am well pleased.
    Yet, Jesus was arrested and crucified despite that "proof" that he was the son of God.
    It's hard to understand their thinking, including the Cain story.
    Also, Saul (Paul) changed his beliefs after seeing Jesus on the way to Damascus.

    I sometimes wonder if God sent "someone" (Jesus, Moses, Mohammed,....) and gave us all a message how screwed up we have become with all of our different religious beliefs, would things change?
    Would the Muslims stop their hostilities against anyone who doesn't believe what they do?
    Would the Christians stop insisting that their way is the only way to God and everyone else is wrong?
    Things like that.

    What a wonderful world this would be if we were all on the same page...religiously.
    So, until that time, we still have our different "Books" that are supposed to be our Owner's Manual of sorts on how to live.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master Traffer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    2,228
    I think the example of Cain's mother is even more revealing. How long did it take for Satan to get her to betray God? 2 minutes? The bottom line for me is that the dark spiritual influences upon humans are far more powerful than we are. Our only hope is to recognize this and actually "take refuge" in God. Able did that and that is why his offerings were accepted. David did that and that is why God was with him to defeat great enemies.
    But the average person does not run to take refuge in God when evil comes and is quickly deceived by it. Causing a spiritual disaster.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Lenore, WV
    Posts
    2,308
    The scribes and Pharisees had direct contact and spoke with Jesus. They saw numerous undisptable miracles and still did not have faith in Jesus,the Son of God. They did not dispute the miracles, but said he did the miracles by the power of Beelzebub and not God.
    There are several people in the Bible who had contact with God and refused to believe.
    Until the devil is condemed to hell there will be unbelievers.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Central Arkansas
    Posts
    259
    I wonder just how arrogant Cain must have been. Much more arrogant than the worst atheists we have today.
    I know this isn't your point, but I don't think most atheists are arrogant.
    You hear the loud mouthed ones on the internet and tv, but I don't think that's the majority.
    Christians have loudmouthed idiots too. I don't judge all Christians by how Pat Robertson and the Westboro Baptist Church conduct themselves. I know that most Christians are great people who really care about others. I was raised going to church every time the doors were open and I know the people I grew up with were wonderful people.
    Life is a series of bullseyes and backstraps - Ted Nugent

  6. #6
    Boolit Master Traffer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2016
    Posts
    2,228
    Quote Originally Posted by Arkansas Paul View Post
    I know this isn't your point, but I don't think most atheists are arrogant.
    You hear the loud mouthed ones on the internet and tv, but I don't think that's the majority.
    Christians have loudmouthed idiots too. I don't judge all Christians by how Pat Robertson and the Westboro Baptist Church conduct themselves. I know that most Christians are great people who really care about others. I was raised going to church every time the doors were open and I know the people I grew up with were wonderful people.
    Most atheists are Godless. What does the Bible say about godlessness?

  7. #7
    Boolit Master

    Dieselhorses's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Location
    Southeast Louisiana
    Posts
    763
    Christians, Muslims, Hindu (name any denomination/religion) can be so close to God, or the god they believe in, but then inherently distance themselves from that god thus believing "they" govern life, series of events, everyday routine. In essence they become "lukewarm" in their beliefs and take the reigns to control their destiny. Similarly did Adam and Eve try to run and hide from God in the garden of Eden because once they agreed to follow God's simple instruction but then failed Him. I guess my point is, is that in our prayers, our offerings or anything else we do for God, we have to do it with a clean slate (ask for forgiveness of shortcomings etc.). Can't have a beef with anyone, can't hold grudges etc.. God rejected Cain's offering simply because he didn't have a pure heart and that could be many reasons. All Cain really had to do was pray earnestly and seek out God's reasoning behind it and fix the problem. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
    The unexamined life is not worth living----Socrates
    Pain, is just weakness leaving the body...
    It is better to be hated for who you are, than to be loved for who you are not (ask DJT).

  8. #8
    Boolit Master pmer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    East Central Minn.
    Posts
    1,398
    Cain's problem with God went beyond faith. He knew first hand that God is God yet he ultimately used Able to hurt God.
    With Cain and Adam & Eve there are two perspectives of evil. Adam & Eve affords a more personnel view of a wrong while Cain gives more of a bird's eye view of evil actions. Maybe even a glimpse of what God is up agaisnt with His adversary.

    Cain did a series of evil actions that lead to separation while Adam and Eve ultimately repented.
    Last edited by pmer; 07-16-2019 at 07:51 AM.
    Recent cast boolit hunts:
    2 does, 6.5 Creedmoor; Horn. 129 grain sp
    Adult buck, 458 SOCOM 405 grain WFN, Doe 36-225AG
    buck & doe, Accurate Molds 36-225AG Model 94AE

  9. #9
    Boolit Master


    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Northern Michigan
    Posts
    3,973
    Quote Originally Posted by wv109323 View Post
    The scribes and Pharisees had direct contact and spoke with Jesus. They saw numerous undisptable miracles and still did not have faith in Jesus,the Son of God. They did not dispute the miracles, but said he did the miracles by the power of Beelzebub and not God.
    There are several people in the Bible who had contact with God and refused to believe.
    Until the devil is condemed to hell there will be unbelievers.
    Exactly. I can understand people of today, who have no recent "evidence" of God, not believing in Him. But how can anyone who has had contact with God still be an unbeliever? It makes no sense to me.

    God proved Himself to the ancients more than once. And yet not everyone believed. Even the miracles that occur today are pooh-poohed as "luck" or due to advances in medicine. We have not experienced miracles like the parting of the Red Sea, baptism of Christ, or His resurrection that are undisputable acts of God. We are dependent on the Word to feed our faith.

    Man was created predisposed to search for knowledge and wants to understand, but we cannot understand God completely. God put the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the Garden of Eden knowing that Adam and Eve would commit the first sin. He knew man wanted knowledge. He made us that way.

    Our inability to understand God is why faith is so difficult and why atheism has grown.

    Many churches do not help in strengthening our faith in God. Too many ridicule science or see it as "the enemy" of faith. Especially those churches that cling to the new earth view. (Earth is 6-10k years old) It is impossible for an intelligent person to accept such a doctrine and trust he will hear the truth from that church. There is too much evidence against the new earth belief. And it is easy to dismiss it all if one must accept the "core beliefs" of some churches. So, sadly, the more intelligent and educated members of modern society are driven away.

    I have learned to ignore the interpretations and preaching of some pastors. They are not bad people, or stupid, or lying...they are just wrong on some things. Yet they can deliver powerful messages that make me think and help me grow my faith.

    It is possible to have faith in God without having to accept every doctrine of the church. My current church believes in the inerrancy of the Bible...I do not. It can be argued that faith is even stronger if we are not required to be "brain washed" and instead question...yet still believe.

    Faith is difficult but necessary. But good things are normally not easily acquired.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    State of Denial
    Posts
    2,698
    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Exactly. I can understand people of today, who have no recent "evidence" of God, not believing in Him. But how can anyone who has had contact with God still be an unbeliever? It makes no sense to me.
    I think you might be using the term "unbeliever" in place of "rejector", and I don't think arrogance plays into it at all.

    Ponder great big chunks of human history: Your firstborn son died of typhus; your third was stillborn and your wife died with it; your crops were devoured by locusts; the barbarian horde appeared on the horizon, and, not finding any grain to pillage, made off with your only remaining teenage daughter after beating you senseless and allowing the funnier ones among them to sodomize you by the warm firelight of your burning house for a couple hours.

    So let's say God DOES show up in a blaze of radiant splendor - you don't deny his existence, but you call B.S. on his job as a boss, since it seems that "faith and adherence to The Plan" requires you to receive an endless series of kicks to the balls and be happy about it. "Sorry bro - if you really were all that and a bag of chips, I'd still have all that and wouldn't be starving 'cuz I'd have a bag of chips to eat."

    If our problem is an inability to understand God - well, it has been said that a failing of the student to comprehend is a failure of the teacher to transmit the information. God's either a bad teacher, or he made the mistake of creating sentient beings that don't want to be pawns when what he really wants is worker ants - either way, lots of room for a vote of "no confidence" in the Perfect Being theory.

    A certain amount of atheism must stem from looking at the choices as (a.) there is a guy at the wheel, but he's drunk out of his mind AND texting, or (b.) there is nobody at the wheel.
    WWJMBD?

    "I'M MELLLLLLLLLLTING!" - Elphaba

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,375
    Quote Originally Posted by dverna View Post
    Much more arrogant than the worst atheists we have today.
    I would contend that someone who claims to know more than all others is really the arrogant one.

    You do realize there is no real physical basis for Christianity. Just destroy all Bibles and give it a few hundred years and all will just fade away and be forgotten. If that is not enough then say in another 4000 years the return of the savior will be discredited by time and the Christian faith will have mostly been forgotten Bible and all. Time is not on your side.
    EDG

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
    dtknowles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Southeast Louisiana
    Posts
    3,056
    I think the literal interpretation of those sections of the old testament is leading you astray. They are parables. They are not historical events. Look for the lesson don't treat them like they were real people.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master GhostHawk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Fargo ND
    Posts
    5,226
    I can't prove that "God" still speaks to men.

    Something is speaking to me regularly. And to my wife now and then.

    I would not say it is like hearing my neighbor saying good morning.

    More like a still small voice inside my head that could perhaps be hard to discern from a thought of my own.
    Except it is not my "voice" and I seldom think of myself as "William Thomas".

    I have been watching those interactions with that voice. Not once has it encouraged me to do something I would consider wrong.
    Always it is encouraging to give, to help, to guide, to lift those in need.
    I don't believe that is the devil.

    Sometimes it has been known (Holy Spirit?) to "use" my fingers to say things better than I could say them.
    Sometimes I get information (Knowing) that it would not be possible for me to know.

    At times I can use that information to help family members who have just lost a loved one.
    Tricky stuff though, easy to get burned. So I do tend to do so reluctantly.

    But it is my experience that if you are wrapped up in this worlds troubles and concerns.
    Have the TV on blaring noise into your ear. It is hard to get yourself into that still quiet listening phase where you can hear.

    I am going to go WAY out on a limb here. I lost both my parents, dad in oct of 17, mom in Jan of 18.
    It was december, I was at home, watching a tv show. Something about it reminded me of mom and dad. Especially mom.

    I swear to you I felt her hand touch my left shoulder. And she whispered to me in that still small voice.

    "Bill, your doing just fine, your father and I are together with the Lord, all is well. Bill just keep on as you have been and all will be well."

    Then I felt dad's heavier hand hit my right shoulder and heard a very faint "love you son".

    Then the weirdest thing of all happened.

    I could see mom and dad standing behind me with their hands on me, and I could see the Lord with his hands on their shoulders.
    And he is smiling, giving encouragement to the three of us.

    Like a triple blessing.

    I am not ashamed to admit I cried hard for 5 minutes. Freaked my poor wife out.

    Are you ok? I'm ok. Are you ok? I'm ok. Are you ok? I'm ok. Bill why are you crying. I'll tell you, patience.

    It is my opinion that he speaks to many of us, but we are not listening for him.
    Maybe we have not learned how to listen to our hearts.

    Maybe we are not keeping our hearts pure and clean, a fit temple for the Holy Spirit to dwell in.

    I know I went through 3 days of real pain cleaning mine out.

    I am willing to help anyone who is committed to accomplishing this. But you have to WANT to.
    And you have to be ready to see things as Jesus saw them, forgive as he forgave.

    I don't believe I am crazy. Weird perhaps.

    Thank you if you made it this far. It is good to share, both joy and pain. Love you brothers.

  14. #14
    Banned



    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Color Me Gone
    Posts
    8,417
    God still speaks to the Saints
    If you believe the Bible
    God sent the Holy Ghost to comfort and guide us and teach us
    If you are not in touch with the Holy Ghost you are missing out
    If you do not believe The Word, then how can you have any Faith?????
    You put your Faith under a rock
    You believe the Word is just a work of fiction so there is zero chance to have Faith in something you do not be to be inherent Word of God.
    Most unfortunate, considering all that was sacrificed and provided for you.

  15. #15
    Moderator Emeritus

    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    7,435
    Sometimes, Don, I think more of us than we'd like to think would do what we want, and (these days) explain our conversation with God as "bad eats," and go ahead and do what we WANT instead of what we've clearly been advised and admonished to do. When God gave mankind a free will, he gave us the makings of our own undoing, if that's what we choose. I think it's really just that simple. God doesn't sit up in Heaven and move us around like chess pieces. He turned us loose, on our own, to decide our own fate. And Satan's many, many temptations are seductive lures to take us away from our Maker and our Salvation. And today, not many are even looking for salvation, or for answers to the timeless mysteries that have always intrigued us, and made us wonder, and filled us with awe and trepidation. The "new breed" in the streets today seems to be averse to hearing ANYTHING about the Lord, and some wouldn't accept it if we poured it into their heads. They'd just shake it off, and go on thinking they are their own "universe" and that it'll never end. I don't know of any way to save a person like that, and I can't help but wonder what our future will be like when these types get significant control of our gov't and its offices. My only solace is knowing it's all in God's hands, and not ours nor theirs. I find that a wondrous cure for being depressed about the way of politics today.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master

    Hickory's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    The Great Black Swamp of Northwest Ohio
    Posts
    4,283
    Quote Originally Posted by Bigslug View Post
    I think you might be using the term "unbeliever" in place of "rejector", and I don't think arrogance plays into it at all.

    Ponder great big chunks of human history: Your firstborn son died of typhus; your third was stillborn and your wife died with it; your crops were devoured by locusts; the barbarian horde appeared on the horizon, and, not finding any grain to pillage, made off with your only remaining teenage daughter after beating you senseless and allowing the funnier ones among them to sodomize you by the warm firelight of your burning house for a couple hours.
    And during all of this, where was the heart of this man? Was it with God or on his bad situation?
    Now, consider Job. Where was his heart during the lose of his family and all that he owned did he curse God and blame others while he suffered with sores?
    God sometimes will test a person to find out where his heart is and see what sort of person he really is inside and out.

    I have seen many say one thing and in the moment of truth do the opposite.
    Political correctness is a national suicide pact.

    I am a sovereign individual, accountable
    only to God and my own conscience.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master
    dtknowles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Southeast Louisiana
    Posts
    3,056
    Quote Originally Posted by Dieselhorses View Post
    Christians, Muslims, Hindu (name any denomination/religion) can be so close to God, or the god they believe in, but then inherently distance themselves from that god thus believing "they" govern life, series of events, everyday routine. In essence they become "lukewarm" in their beliefs and take the reigns to control their destiny. Similarly did Adam and Eve try to run and hide from God in the garden of Eden because once they agreed to follow God's simple instruction but then failed Him. I guess my point is, is that in our prayers, our offerings or anything else we do for God, we have to do it with a clean slate (ask for forgiveness of shortcomings etc.). Can't have a beef with anyone, can't hold grudges etc.. God rejected Cain's offering simply because he didn't have a pure heart and that could be many reasons. All Cain really had to do was pray earnestly and seek out God's reasoning behind it and fix the problem. Anyway, that's my 2 cents.
    "Christians, Muslims, Hindu (name any denomination/religion) can be so close to God, or the god they believe in, but then inherently distance themselves from that god thus believing"

    There is but one God, the creator of the Universe. No matter what religion or belief they are worshiping the same God only in different ways. If you do not worship God but some demon or physical thing all that means is that you are either siding with evil against God or are a hedonist.

    Tim
    Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS

    The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton

    The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,375
    I'll fly a starship
    Across the Universe divide
    And when I reach the other side
    I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can
    Perhaps I may become a highwayman again
    Or I may simply be a single drop of rain
    But I will remain
    And I'll be back again, and again and again and again and again.
    EDG

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    West Tennessee
    Posts
    1,217
    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    I'll fly a starship
    Across the Universe divide
    And when I reach the other side
    I'll find a place to rest my spirit if I can
    Perhaps I may become a highwayman again
    Or I may simply be a single drop of rain
    But I will remain
    And I'll be back again, and again and again and again and again.
    I wouldn't bet on it, but whatever turns your crank. I'm betting on one and done!

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    4,375
    You must not recognize those words.
    Obviously you take the written word in literature far too literally.
    You are betting on nothing but goat herders yarns.
    In the mean time the universe is around 3 billion years old.
    I am betting the universe has a lot more to it than you and your goat herding buddies can ever hope comprehend. Three billion years is a time span your imagination cannot grasp since you have convinced yourself you already have all the answers.
    The keys to the universe do not exist in the Bible - which is just a piece of literature. It is not comparable to a physics book. If the Bible is the only book you rely on you have little chance of knowing what is real.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thundarstick View Post
    I wouldn't bet on it, but whatever turns your crank. I'm betting on one and done!
    EDG

Page 1 of 7 1234567 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check