Any reason NOT to water quench?

[Dusty Bannister]

I have been a bullet caster for sufficient time that I have set back a variety of different alloys. Seldom will I oven HT/Q since I generally have the hardness I am seeking in and air cooled alloy. But there are times that it is beneficial to work with something a bit harder and I am pretty careful with my remaining linotype supply.

For me, it is not necessary to create a harder bullet by quenching. Even at that, I would prefer to NOT quench from the mold. I have never had a steam splatter when casting, and I prefer to keep it that way.

For those that do not have the necessary alloys to create the hard air cooled bullets, it is not really optional, so I have no problem with HT/Q or even quenching from the mold. These methods may be the only way to get hard bullets in years to come, so keep learning from others different ways to keep shooting.

[ole_270]

For the loads I run the most I tend to use softer alloys. I've had no trouble with 12 Bhn up to 1600 fps. The only thing I quench is 308 loads over 2000 fps. These are a 1.4%Sn, 2.9%Sb alloy and get quenched when they come out of the PC oven and are working up to 2450 fps.
One question, long ago I read that quenched, softer alloys hold the rifling nearly as well as harder alloys, but mushroom as well as if air cooled. I haven't seen any testing or really any comments on this in quite a while. Was this just rumor. or is there anything to it?

[jsizemore]

I've been casting for quite a while. I see folks saying they have problems with damaged bullets when they're dropped to air cool. Don't know that's ever been a problem for me. I cast at a fairly leisurely pace of 2 fill and drops per minute in a 4 cavity iron mold. The sprues are cut and not torn out and no smear of lead across the mold top or sprue plate. The mold tells me what it wants. I then ram the bullets through a sizer. But are they accurate? Got my Grand Slam in silhouette shooting lead I cast. Shot nothing but master scores over a 5 year period shooting AC COWW bullets.

My drop pad is an old cotton bed sheet for a base with an old cotton towel on top of that. Measures 27"x 16" x .75". I don't drop the bullets on the pile that I push to the end as I go. They hit each other and the towel when they drop from the mold. Can't see where water quenching solves a problem that doesn't exist with a little care. 8 bullets a minute is probably too slow for most folks but the results are worth it.

[tazman]

Nothing is really etched in stone with this process. There are nearly as many ways to do this as there are people doing it.
All work well enough that the people using boolits are satisfied with the results.
If they aren't, they will try something else. Each gun will tell you if it likes your methods. Listen to your weapons.

[DougGuy]

I look at it this way. There are a LOT of us on this board that shoot Ruger revolvers. The profile of the rifling lends itself to VERY good performance out of air cooled 50/50+2% and soft lube. This alloy works well with gas checks also. I have better obturation, as close to zero leading as you will get, and never need to clean a barrel, and if I do the patch comes out dark with powder and lube residue. We also call this a "black bore" where this residue serves to "season" the bore between shots, as it lubes the front half of the boolit as it travels.

I don't see where changing the alloy to straight coww makes this combo any better, it makes throat dimensions more critical, it will promote leading if all is not sized to match correctly, I would suspect that water quenching would only lessen performance as it would lessen obturation.

Maybe water quenching might improve in max loads for 475, 480, and 500 calibers but for conventional 36kpsi magnum level and below power, I don't think it would help.

[am44mag]

Theoretically,
One thing to worry about with water dropping boolits from the mold, would be hardness consistency in a batch, because as you cast, the water warms up, the boolits won't be cooling as fast in warmer water. I've never investigated this, so maybe the potential variation won't be enough to worry about? especially for pistol, but I would think for the best groups when shooting rifle, you would want to most consistent hardness, boolit to boolit, as possible.
That's my 2¢

I've never been able to cast fast enough to raise the water temp much. Maybe a few degrees, though my container is big enough that it holds more water than I need. Even with a Lee 6 banger in 9mm and casting 500 boolits, the water got slightly warmer than room temp. I doubt any potential inconsistencies caused by the slightly warmer water would be enough to notice. Maybe if would make a difference if you were casting precision bullets meant to be shot at 500-1000 yards, but for pistol and short range rifle, I don't seen it being an issue.

[mdi]

I always looked at this question from the other side; "why would I want to water quench?". I started casting in an area without water near by (out in the shed and I'd have to bring water in) and didn't like the mess. If I wanted hard bullets (which I never did) I'd just add some hard lead to my alloy (easier to control hardness). I have never burned myself on freshly cast bullets (I did one time. One of the very first "perfect" bullets I cast made me so excited I picked it up about 15 seconds after it dropped from the mold. First and last time). So, why drop my bullets in a pail of water?

[RED BEAR]

I have been a bullet caster for sufficient time that I have set back a variety of different alloys. Seldom will I oven HT/Q since I generally have the hardness I am seeking in and air cooled alloy. But there are times that it is beneficial to work with something a bit harder and I am pretty careful with my remaining linotype supply.

For me, it is not necessary to create a harder bullet by quenching. Even at that, I would prefer to NOT quench from the mold. I have never had a steam splatter when casting, and I prefer to keep it that way.

For those that do not have the necessary alloys to create the hard air cooled bullets, it is not really optional, so I have no problem with HT/Q or even quenching from the mold. These methods may be the only way to get hard bullets in years to come, so keep learning from others different ways to keep shooting.

The worst burn i got came from steam in the mold didn't wear gloves on my pour hand only on mold hand when it steamed as i started to pour lead it startled me and i spilt a ladle full of lead over the back of my hand.

[Demeter’s_Workshop]

The amount of hardening provided by a quick dunk in water while hot isn't significant for soft or pure lead. Its more for faster handling and no surprise "ouch thats hot still" but comes with its own added opposites like steam burns / splashes. Not really worth it depending on where your casting, its convenience more than anything. If you want harder bullets, you need to add more antimony. Hardening is more significant with higher antimony alloys, So in some cases you would not want to quench.

[Larry Gibson]

I've been water quenching cast bullets from the mould directly into water for many, many years. Never had a single problem because I read how to do it correctly and followed the instructions. The mould should be at temp (that means the sucker is skillet hot) when casting. Any water that may get splashed onto the mould is sputtered/sizzled off immediately. It will not sit there in the cavity and "steam". If it does two things are being done wrong; the mould is not to temp and the mould is held too close to the water.

Proper WQing from the mould to achieve a consistent level of BHN increase requires the mould/alloy be very hot (I cast at 710 - 725 degrees) and the bullet be dropped from the mould as soon as the sprue hardens. Bullets should not be dropped into water until the mould is to temp and is casting good bullets. The bullet solidifies and cools very quickly and must be dropped into the water as quickly as it can be. The mould is still very hot and, as mentioned, any water that may splash onto it will sputter/sizzle off well before you can even close the mould........

However, there are always those who can't do things correctly and they should avoid WQing if they can't do it correctly. There are many things hazardous and potentially dangerous in casting bullets. Each must make a decision, based on your own abilities, as to what you should or should not do.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I've been water quenching cast bullets from the mould directly into water for many, many years. Never had a single problem because I read how to do it correctly and followed the instructions. The mould should be at temp (that means the sucker is skillet hot) when casting. Any water that may get splashed onto the mould is sputtered/sizzled off immediately. It will not sit there in the cavity and "steam". If it does two things are being done wrong; the mould is not to temp and the mould is held too close to the water.

Proper WQing from the mould to achieve a consistent level of BHN increase requires the mould/alloy be very hot (I cast at 710 - 725 degrees) and the bullet be dropped from the mould as soon as the sprue hardens. Bullets should not be dropped into water until the mould is to temp and is casting good bullets. The bullet solidifies and cools very quickly and must be dropped into the water as quickly as it can be. The mould is still very hot and, as mentioned, any water that may splash onto it will sputter/sizzle off well before you can even close the mould........

However, there are always those who can't do things correctly and they should avoid WQing if they can't do it correctly. There are many things hazardous and potentially dangerous in casting bullets. Each must make a decision, based on your own abilities, as to what you should or should not do.

Thank you Larry that is my exact experience. I have even experimented by splashing a little water in my furnace and have never had hot lead explode out of the pot. Like you said a little water in a hot mold will be gone before you can even get it closed for the next pore.

[poppy42]

I water quench all my cast boolets. I find it quicker and easier. And the extra hardness I get is an added plus as far as I’m concerned

[RED BEAR]

Larry not trying to get you going but the worst burn i got was from water in my mold cavity that blew the lead back out as i started to pour startled me and spilt a ladle full of lead over my hand. Mold was up to heat as had already cast couple hundred rounds. But as you state i was probably to close to the water . And this allowed a large amount of water into cavity. I just always figured it would instantly burn off. But it didn't. I will say that since i am a lot more careful lately have not had another problem. I wish i had read your post about staying far enough from the water before i did this.

[Larry Gibson]

RED BEAR

We all make mistakes, it's sometimes how we learn. I've made my share of them......

[William Yanda]

Do you shoot rifle exclusively?

[8mmFan]

Red Bear, you’ve motivated me to dig out that LEE hardness tester and give it a go, again. I also like the idea of melting ALL the lead I’ve got into one big amalgamated mash, and just using it all together. It probably would make more consistent pours...the alloy would be the same, anyway. Only two problems with that: I don’t have nearly a big enough melter to do it, and I wouldn’t want to toss my stash of linotype away like that.

Larry, not because I designed it that way, but just because it’s happened that way, the method you’re talking about for water quenching is pretty much how I do it. I have the “temperature gauge” or whatever it is on my LEE 4-20 set at between 7 and 8. Not because I arrived at that being the best setting for my purposes - but because that’s where I’ve been able to melt all variations of my lead. I am a lead scavenger - I get it where I can. I had a wrestling-dad buddy give me a bunch one time. Some came from eBay, etc. Over the years some of it has proven darn hard to melt - but between 7 and 8 on the LEE 4-20 melts it all.

When I drop the bullets into the mold, I’m normally sitting in a chair and the water is on the floor. I just lean down and drop in the water-filled old bread pan. Sometimes water does jump up on the mold. When I say that I mean maybe a droplet or to. It steams off so fast it’s gone before I sit back up in my chair, or before the mold is even closed. I’m definitely not dunking the mold in the water.

William Yanda - It’s a mix. I absolutely HATE paying for factory ammunition, so I pretty much only shoot reloads. With the cost of cast vs. factory, I can shoot pistol a lot cheaper with cast as everybody here knows. So a lot of my casting is for pistol, both 9 and 45. I also really, really like to shoot cast in my rifles too, though, particularly very low power, comfortable-to-shoot loads. So a lot of our casting is for rifle, too. When we cast, we just keep two or three molds going: run a few with a two-cavity 8mm mold, say, and then a few with a six-cavity 9. It just depends on what we’re short of, and what we feel like. So the same alloy will go into a 9mm bullet, and then into a 7mm soupcan. Not very scientific, for sure, but then I’m just casting to shoot cheap and shoot a lot, not for super-long-distance precision. For that (insofar as I can achieve that even then) I shoot jacketed bullets. With a wife, a bunch of kids, and a job and other commitments I just don’t have the time yet to be more precise than I am with cast bullet alloys, for now. I hope to, someday, but there are some other things ahead of that on “the list.”

Let me say, again, that I really appreciate each and every comment here. I’ve said it before and I say it again, I learn something new and valuable every time I come to CastBoolits. Without you guys I’d be a lot farther behind on shooting cast, for sure.

8mmFan

[Lloyd Smale]

I say if you don't mind the work it wont hurt a thing. I can count on the fingers of one hand the times ive had a gun that has shot better with softer alloys then it did harder alloys and that's at any velocity. The times it went the other way are with guns that had sloppy dimensions. Chambers to tight, barrels to big ect .

[RED BEAR]

8mmfan i don't have a very big pot either. Thats why i mix the ingots and melt more than once. I use a $10 hot plate and a ss pot from the dollar store . Hot plate will not get my cast pot hot enough to melt lead. But ss pot works great. I would love to get a better setup so more could be done at once. I make up two different types a soft mix and a mix of mostly wheel weights i add a little tin to both but only because i have it. Then if i want something a little harder you can add your linotype as needed. Just rember to keep left over seperate so you don't change alloy and you can use it next time you need that mix. I ended up with two large buckets of my main mixes and about 4 coffee cans of left overs.

[fredj338]

If your alloy has no antimony in it, water quenching isn't giving you anything. I just don't find it convenient for general pistol bullets. I don't need a hard bullet to run 45acp or 9/40 minor loads. I also now PC so water dropping then baking @ 400 for 13-14m seems pointless.

[ShooterAZ]

I tend to blend my alloys to the hardness I want it to be. Lino is a wonderful alloy for doing just that. Most, it not all my cast boolit shooting is done with softer alloys anyway. Typically no harder than BHN 15.