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Thread: HELP RF Firing pin Barely Hits Rim!

  1. #41
    Boolit Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traffer View Post
    If you want a standard metric sized reamer (4mm?) You can get them on eBay for One Dollar US. They work fine if you are only doing a few pieces with them and not having to ream a deep hole:
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/HSS-enginee...XXu-yovgQkCFmA
    Also. Very easy to use. If you can chuck them in a drill and twist by hand. On a drill press it is very easy. Just don't spin them fast only hand speed. It's so easy your head will explode.
    For $1.00 EACH? If the deal seems too good to be true, it is.

    Delivery from Hong Kong by the end August if not mid-September.

    These probably cut a clearance hole, (they don't say), not the drag fit which is what you need. Do that, and you've spoiled not only the link but the lever and the breechblock. Bad risk.

    BTW a cute trick that these ultra-cheap Chinese evilBay sellers are known for is selling reject merchandise to gullible Americans. Learned that the hard way quite a few years ago now. Never again.

    Are they collecting your Credit Card information for later use? That's too often the purpose behind these ultra-cheap deals. Absolutely no way they're not taking a loss on these if they're offering free shipping.

    Nothing personal, Traffer, but I would not touch this with a barge pole.
    flectere si nequeo superos, acheronta movebo

  2. #42
    Boolit Master Traffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    For $1.00 EACH? If the deal seems too good to be true, it is.

    Delivery from Hong Kong by the end August if not mid-September.

    These probably cut a clearance hole, (they don't say), not the drag fit which is what you need. Do that, and you've spoiled not only the link but the lever and the breechblock. Bad risk.

    BTW a cute trick that these ultra-cheap Chinese evilBay sellers are known for is selling reject merchandise to gullible Americans. Learned that the hard way quite a few years ago now. Never again.

    Are they collecting your Credit Card information for later use? That's too often the purpose behind these ultra-cheap deals. Absolutely no way they're not taking a loss on these if they're offering free shipping.

    Nothing personal, Traffer, but I would not touch this with a barge pole.
    I defer to your expertise.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Here are the reamers. If you want to check to find something better. Just use Amazon.ca (canadian) instead of .com... both sites dont always have the same stuff.
    There is a bunch of kits.
    https://www.amazon.ca/Straight-Chuck...-2-spons&psc=1

  4. #44
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    For $1.00 EACH? If the deal seems too good to be true, it is.

    Delivery from Hong Kong by the end August if not mid-September.

    These probably cut a clearance hole, (they don't say), not the drag fit which is what you need. Do that, and you've spoiled not only the link but the lever and the breechblock. Bad risk.

    BTW a cute trick that these ultra-cheap Chinese evilBay sellers are known for is selling reject merchandise to gullible Americans. Learned that the hard way quite a few years ago now. Never again.

    Are they collecting your Credit Card information for later use? That's too often the purpose behind these ultra-cheap deals. Absolutely no way they're not taking a loss on these if they're offering free shipping.

    Nothing personal, Traffer, but I would not touch this with a barge pole.
    Thanks for the heads up fellers I just ordered the set - ten and a half bucks landed in my mailbox. !!

    Have had some good use from cheap chinese tooling the last couple years - end mills, tungsten carbide ball cutters, diamond burrs, ...... if there is a fault its that some of this stuff is too hard (the end mills) and the cutter edges are a little less finished.

    If you stick to Ebay and use paypal for the money there is no more risk than at your local grocery store - the scammers are selling on their own account off facebook - a good yardstick is if they will not accept paypal ........run!!!

    Dont know how they manage the low cost shipping but they do it - I believe the Chinese govt subsidises that internally - we pay way more in Aussie dollar to send stuff across the country and american postage / shipping in much more expensive than ours even .....I have some experience in that not just talking out my hat.

    So my bargepole has been unlimbered again - I have a little business going that sees me buying components out of China regularly - would be several hundred orders to date - and have had almost no problems - certainly no worse than buying similar items down the street - so I sneak a bit of workshop tooling past the local chanceller of the exchequer (wife/accountant) along with my electronics parts.

  5. #45
    Boolit Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Oh, criminy, you're in Canada. Big problem. .ca doesn't list all the stuff I can get on .com. You sure you can't buy from Amazon.com? If not, we'll have to start over. It won't be the best job you can do, but it should improve on what you've got. From a set of number drills, find the largest one that will fit through the existing holes in the link. Ditto the holes in the lever and breechblock. Let me know what you find.
    Last edited by uscra112; 07-11-2019 at 05:05 AM.
    flectere si nequeo superos, acheronta movebo

  6. #46
    Boolit Master uscra112's Avatar
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    OK, it took me a while to remember. McMaster-Carr ships to Canada. Major industrial supply house here. Very quick turnaround, no minimum, they take your credit card. Only drawback is no free shipping.

    They don't have my first choice of reamer, so get this one:

    https://www.mcmaster.com/8851a16

    It's only a few "tenths"larger than my first choice, but it'll do fine.

    While you're in there, order the 4mm dowel pins:

    https://www.mcmaster.com/91595a155

    Now you'll be set to "tighten-up" Favorites for the whole Province and beyond. Make new friends and influence people.

    Bookmark the site. I order something-or-other from them at least once a month. Nothing but the best industrial grade stuff. When I was designing/building automation equipment for GM and Ford we put in an order to McMaster almost every day. Catalog weighs a metric ton. "If they don't have it, you don't need it" phrase was invented to describe them.
    flectere si nequeo superos, acheronta movebo

  7. #47
    Boolit Master

    Bent Ramrod's Avatar
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    Would it be possible to peen the center of the link (between the holes) slightly with a hammer and punch? With the pins in the link holes to keep them open, careful tapping and measuring and checking for fit would stretch the link a few thousandths, bringing the block up further, and tighter against the breech of the barrel.

    The Page-Lewis I have came with the link hacksawed halfway apart and pried further apart with a screwdriver. Naturally, the gap closed again with a shot or two, but the basic notion of moving the holes apart was sound. (I wound up reproducing the link with a slightly larger hole spacing.)

    You could get an extra link to practice on. Doesn’t require the commitment that reaming new holes in lever, link and block does.

  8. #48
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    OK, it took me a while to remember. McMaster-Carr ships to Canada. Major industrial supply house here. Very quick turnaround, no minimum, they take your credit card. Only drawback is no free shipping.

    They don't have my first choice of reamer, so get this one:

    https://www.mcmaster.com/8851a16

    It's only a few "tenths"larger than my first choice, but it'll do fine.

    While you're in there, order the 4mm dowel pins:

    https://www.mcmaster.com/91595a155

    Now you'll be set to "tighten-up" Favorites for the whole Province and beyond. Make new friends and influence people.

    Bookmark the site. I order something-or-other from them at least once a month. Nothing but the best industrial grade stuff. When I was designing/building automation equipment for GM and Ford we put in an order to McMaster almost every day. Catalog weighs a metric ton. "If they don't have it, you don't need it" phrase was invented to describe them.
    The amazon ones aren't good enough? I know nothing about reamers but I probably wont use them again. So a pack of 10 for 30$ looks good to me...? I'd still need some pins though.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Now, that is something I never thought of. I know Colt 'smiths do some peening on hands to fix indexing problems, and it might just work here. The link is not through-hardened, so it could be stretched. I'd still consider it a temporary fix; it'll depend on how much Kev cares about the gun.

    That Page-Lewis - that was definitely the original link? Mine is mint, and looks made well enough that a link that was too short just doesn't seem possible.
    flectere si nequeo superos, acheronta movebo

  10. #50
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    Now, that is something I never thought of. I know Colt 'smiths do some peening on hands to fix indexing problems, and it might just work here. The link is not through-hardened, so it could be stretched. I'd still consider it a temporary fix; it'll depend on how much Kev cares about the gun.

    That Page-Lewis - that was definitely the original link? Mine is mint, and looks made well enough that a link that was too short just doesn't seem possible.
    How do I go about pounding on this thing?

  11. #51
    Boolit Master uscra112's Avatar
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    You need an anvil, which can be any block of steel or iron weighing 5 or 10 lbs at least, and a special peening hammer, although any heavy hammer and a very dull cold chisel would do in a pinch. I hesitate to send you off in that direction. You will need an accurate dial or electronic caliper to gage your progress. Do you have one? Do you have a similar sized piece of steel to practice on? This is a skill that blacksmiths' apprentices used to spend years learning to do well.

    Meanwhile, regarding the reamers: There's no way to know what size hole the Amazon reamers will actually cut. They don't tell you, and that alone makes me suspicious. The 4mm reamer I found at McMaster will cut 4.000 millimeters, plus .005mm, minus zero, with a very high degree of certainty. .005mm is about .0002", and that is the order of precision we need to make a good job of this. If the Amazon set would do that, they'd surely tell you, but they don't.
    flectere si nequeo superos, acheronta movebo

  12. #52
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uscra112 View Post
    You need an anvil, which can be any block of steel or iron weighing 5 or 10 lbs at least, and a special peening hammer, although any heavy hammer and a very dull cold chisel would do in a pinch. I hesitate to send you off in that direction. You will need an accurate dial or electronic caliper to gage your progress. Do you have one? Do you have a similar sized piece of steel to practice on? This is a skill that blacksmiths' apprentices used to spend years learning to do well.

    Meanwhile, regarding the reamers: There's no way to know what size hole the Amazon reamers will actually cut. They don't tell you, and that alone makes me suspicious. The 4mm reamer I found at McMaster will cut 4.000 millimeters, plus .005mm, minus zero, with a very high degree of certainty. .005mm is about .0002", and that is the order of precision we need to make a good job of this. If the Amazon set would do that, they'd surely tell you, but they don't.
    I have a 125 and 150 pound anvils, with a railroad track one I made. And I have an electronic caliper.

    Honestly Id much rather drill my holes and add some pins.

  13. #53
    Boolit Master

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    The Page Lewis links are nice and big; I have no explanation as to why it “needed” modification. The rifle was found in very good condition, except for the link and (IIRC) a missing takedown screw. I had to make a new one of those, too.

    The trick with peening (for those without skill) is a lot of very light taps, with a light hammer, and frequent stops and careful measuring or checking for fit. Don’t look for evidence of flattening; that may be too much. I would turn the link over every stoppage and measurement as well. When I stretched the hand on a Colt Pocket Positive, I used a piece of drill rod and a tack hammer, with the hand on the “anvil” section of my Wilton vise, and it only took a few light taps. The link holes couldn’t need more than a few thousandths’ more separation.

    I’ve had to make some “linklets” with varying hole spacing for the adult size single shots I’ve worked on that needed “re-linking.” I’d reproduce the right separation in the final link. There must be some sort of mathematical relationship between the link pin spacing and the extent to which the block slides up and/or forward, but I haven’t been able to figure it out.

  14. #54
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    I put it all back together minus the firing pin thats coming. Look how loose the lever is.
    Im pretty sure this thing got bubba'ed pretty bad. The pins are barely long enough to reach through the pieces. And a hole in the block is pretty severely oblong. The pins go in one side of a piece but not the other. They got pounded on so bad that they swaged out abit.

  15. #55
    Boolit Master

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    A small point:
    The Favorite action needs the Barrel in place to check Breech Block and linkage fit properly.

    Without the Barrel in place, the Breech Block can rotate up too far and not give any 'over center' tension to the Linkage.

    Chev. William

  16. #56
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chev. William View Post
    A small point:
    The Favorite action needs the Barrel in place to check Breech Block and linkage fit properly.

    Without the Barrel in place, the Breech Block can rotate up too far and not give any 'over center' tension to the Linkage.

    Chev. William
    You're right. Its a bit less than a half inch with the barrel. Still loose though.

  17. #57
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    Do you have a set of Shim stock feeler gauges?

    If you do try closing the Breech on successively thicker feelers or two feeler stack to find how much 'head Space' you have between the barrel breech end, when the barrel is tightly held in the action, and the Breech Block face when the lever just closes without droop.
    This should be less than .008" and is best if even less.
    If your Favorite barrel is like several of my Stevens Barrels, the rebate for the rim is actually deeper than the typical RF rim due to erosion over Decades of Firing and Cleaning (or lack of it).

    Obviously, the "Ideal Condition" is for the Breech block to just close tight with zero to .001" 'head space'; which is seldom the Case in my experience.

    If you carefully inspect your Action, looking at the Interior of the Receiver body, you will notice that there is actually a space between the inside surfaces, including the bosses that support the Breech
    Block pivot Screw and the Sides of the Breech Block.
    This indicates that the Design loads the Screw in 'Bending' instead of 'Shear', which reduces The effective strength of the screw to resist Breech Bolt Thrust on firing a cartridge.

    Note Also that the Breech Block slot in the top fo the receiver has two 'shoulders' where the Slot narrows for the Hammer.
    If you are lucky, your Breech Block will 'bear on these two shoulders when it is fully Closed to 'Battery' position.

    I have one 'favorite' that was received with such a Breech Block fit.
    I have since found and purchased a few New Manufacturer Breech Blocks for made from 4140 cr Alloy Steel that i have had fitting pads of weld added to the appropriate area of the Breech Block so I can hand fit them to two other Receivers I own.
    Sadly, the Manufacturer was 'disillusioned' by the Lack of Interest in them and refuses to make more.

    Chev. William

  18. #58
    Boolit Master Kev18's Avatar
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    UPDATE: I got a firing pin. And it fired some cases that I made. So im moving forward. I also switched out the crooked lever screw with seemed to have also helped.

  19. #59
    Boolit Master uscra112's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chev. William View Post
    Do you have a set of Shim stock feeler gauges?

    If you do try closing the Breech on successively thicker feelers or two feeler stack to find how much 'head Space' you have between the barrel breech end, when the barrel is tightly held in the action, and the Breech Block face when the lever just closes without droop.
    This should be less than .008" and is best if even less. Should be less than zero. Any clearnace at all lets the lever droop.
    If your Favorite barrel is like several of my Stevens Barrels, the rebate for the rim is actually deeper than the typical RF rim due to erosion over Decades of Firing and Cleaning (or lack of it).

    Obviously, the "Ideal Condition" is for the Breech block to just close tight with zero to .001" 'head space'; which is seldom the Case in my experience.

    If you carefully inspect your Action, looking at the Interior of the Receiver body, you will notice that there is actually a space between the inside surfaces, including the bosses that support the Breech
    Block pivot Screw and the Sides of the Breech Block.
    This indicates that the Design loads the Screw in 'Bending' instead of 'Shear', which reduces The effective strength of the screw to resist Breech Bolt Thrust on firing a cartridge.

    Note Also that the Breech Block slot in the top fo the receiver has two 'shoulders' where the Slot narrows for the Hammer.
    If you are lucky, your Breech Block will 'bear on these two shoulders when it is fully Closed to 'Battery' position.

    I have one 'favorite' that was received with such a Breech Block fit.
    I have since found and purchased a few New Manufacturer Breech Blocks for made from 4140 cr Alloy Steel that i have had fitting pads of weld added to the appropriate area of the Breech Block so I can hand fit them to two other Receivers I own. Adding metal is definitely doing it the hard way. Simply open the pivot hole in the breechblock leg so that the breechblock can move rearward into contact. This assumes, of course, that the barrel will be set back, or a new barrel fitted, and trimmed to obtain the proper interference with the breechblock.

    Sadly, the Manufacturer was 'disillusioned' by the Lack of Interest in them and refuses to make more.

    Chev. William
    @Bent Ramrod: The optimum linkage geometry sets the breechblock face perfectly square to the barrel axis. Hardly matters, since very few will make any pretense of being benchrest rifles today, so really the priority is to eliminate as much free play as possible from the linkage, and getting the firing pin in the proper position. Second priority is getting the breechblock shoulders in contact. Everything else is controlled by the barrel fitting and chambering.** It's a mighty fussy process; I guess I can see why Stevens seems to have abandoned all that fitting for the rimfires after 1896, and for the centerfires too, after the 44 1/2 was brought out.

    **Trying to approach proper set-up by fiddling the breechblock and linkage is going at it backwards! But most bunkhouse gunsmiths will do that, because they don't understand the geometry, and usually lack a lathe.

    Do you remember where the force-resolution diagrams that Chuck Dietz did are secreted on the forum? I'm not finding them.
    Last edited by uscra112; 07-18-2019 at 01:03 AM.
    flectere si nequeo superos, acheronta movebo

  20. #60
    Boolit Master

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    I proceed on the notion (true or not) that the original setup was more-or-less square and the only variable was wear on the parts as the lever was opened and shut, and the firing stress. In any case, with me it’s been cut-and-try.

    Stevens rifles were made to a price, and any hand-fitting on the 44 breech block would be too costly. It’s amazing how well they shoot, even as assembled. I have one wrecked 414 that had an oversized (or off-center forward) hole reamed in the breechblock and frame when I got it as a basket case. I made a slightly small pivot pin out of hardened drill-rod, set back and refitted the barrel, and then lapped the rear of the block and receiver shoulders to a close fit. It does shoot like a house afire, but that was a lot of work. Whether it’s cost-effective is certainly in the eye of the beholder.

    Weren’t those stress diagrams on the ASSRA site? I remember seeing them but can’t recall where.

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