Are LARGE obsolete cartridges actually Obsolete?

[Kev18]

Well I read a bunch of articles and most of them say that alot of old cartridges are obsolete because the ballistics, force of impact, Muzzle energy, and so on, are obsolete themselves since smokeless powders require a much smaller charge. So for example, I was looking at loads for 40-82WCF. People on different forums were arguing that there was no point in these calibers because nowadays a .44 Mag is just as powerful.

Back in the day a 45-70 was a crazy cartridge. But people wanted more so they made the cases longer and longer because they needed more powder. Which makes sense.
Now can't we just adjust the load in a 45-70 to imitate a 45-120?

Cool factor and nostalgia aside, what are your opinions on this?

[cwtebay]

Well I read a bunch of articles and most of them say that alot of old cartridges are obsolete because the ballistics, force of impact, Muzzle energy, and so on, are obsolete themselves since smokeless powders require a much smaller charge. So for example, I was looking at loads for 40-82WCF. People on different forums were arguing that there was no point in these calibers because nowadays a .44 Mag is just as powerful.

Back in the day a 45-70 was a crazy cartridge. But people wanted more so they made the cases longer and longer because they needed more powder. Which makes sense.
Now can't we just adjust the load in a 45-70 to imitate a 45-120?

Cool factor and nostalgia aside, what are your opinions on this?

I know that there are smokeless 45-70 loads that far surpass original 45-120 loads of 500 grains chugging along at 1500ish fps. I also have seen some folks do the same with 45-120 brass in a modern rifle and reportedly end up between a 458 win mag and 460 Weatherby. I can't speak to the 45-120, but the upper end loads in 45-70 are wicked at both ends of the rifle.

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[john.k]

Thats about like saying Lewis and Clark wasted their time and energy ,cause now you can just jump on a plane.

[country gent]

With a lot of states going like Ohio recently has done and allowing straight walled cartridges in rifles for deer hunting during shotgun seasons, the old BP cartridges are making a comeback. the surge in BPCR matches is also is affecting this some. I know several have bought 38-55 and 45-70 lever actions just for this reason. In Ohio any straight walled case 38 cal or larger in a rifle or handgun is allowed. This addition to the game laws regulations allows for rifles in 38-55, 40-65, 45-70, 50-70 along with the extended versions, and the handgun cartridges that meet the criteria. I find it interesting a 30-30 cant be used but a 500 S&W, 460 45 120 or 50 140 are.

Here's something to consider on these "obsolete" rifles. C Sharps and Shiloh sharps reproductions have way surpassed the Original Sharps rifle companies production. This isn't counting pedersoli, CPA, DZ and the others

[ohiochuck]

As Country Gent explained, some states have allowed straight walled rifle cartridges in the gun deer seasons.
During the 2017-2018 Deer Gun season I was lucky to harvest the largest doe I have ever taken using a Merkel model 210 16 bore over 9.3 X 72 Rimmed. I used S&B factory ammo on this hunt. Now ready to test the new to me Accurate # 37-196 with and without GC. Also up for testing is a Winchester 1894 in 38-55.
(Side note- before Ohio decided to allow straight wall rifle cartridges, I sent an e-mail to the Ohio Division of Wildlife Chief Law
Enforcement supervisor asking if a combination gun two barrels or a drilling 3 barrels would be legal to hunt deer with as long as only ammo legal for deer were carried. I explained there seemed to be different views on the legality by ODW game protectors around Ohio.
He quickly replied that combination guns would be legal for deer hunting as long as only the allowed ammo was carried by the hunter. He then sent a notice to the district ODW managers and instructed them to communicate that combination guns would be legal for deer hunting with all their game protectors.
So my Merkel is legal as the 9.3 X 72 R is straight walled case).
Larger caliber rifles are now legal in various Eastern states giving a much need revival for 38-55, 40-65, 45-70, 45-90 ,etc.

[RED BEAR]

Well I read a bunch of articles and most of them say that alot of old cartridges are obsolete because the ballistics, force of impact, Muzzle energy, and so on, are obsolete themselves since smokeless powders require a much smaller charge. So for example, I was looking at loads for 40-82WCF. People on different forums were arguing that there was no point in these calibers because nowadays a .44 Mag is just as powerful.

Back in the day a 45-70 was a crazy cartridge. But people wanted more so they made the cases longer and longer because they needed more powder. Which makes sense.
Now can't we just adjust the load in a 45-70 to imitate a 45-120?

Cool factor and nostalgia aside, what are your opinions on this?

Unfortunately america has caught magnum itus. There is nothing wrong with the old cartridges they worked just fine in there day and will still do so today. Do you really think a dead deer or bear or what ever really cares what caliber killed him? I absolutely love the old cartridges and the guns that shoot them. I don't hunt anymore but i still keep in touch with family and friends who do . I was once told that you need at least a 300 mag to hunt deer around here because you might have to shoot at almost 100 yrds. i asked when deer went on steroids. I really see no need for a canon to hunt mice. But some feel that they do and if so god bless use what floats your boat.
If you like the old gun then i say go for it they can really be a blast to work up loads and shoot.

[GARD72977]

Thats about like saying Lewis and Clark wasted their time and energy ,cause now you can just jump on a plane.

I just could not help thinking - Taking a pregnet woman and a air rifle on a journey across America does seem like a waste if time today

[17nut]

I know that there are smokeless 45-70 loads that far surpass original 45-120 loads of 500 grains chugging along at 1500ish fps. I also have seen some folks do the same with 45-120 brass in a modern rifle and reportedly end up between a 458 win mag and 460 Weatherby. I can't speak to the 45-120, but the upper end loads in 45-70 are wicked at both ends of the rifle.

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There is a reason for the "madness" you know!
Old rifles that will blow up in short order with a high pressure modern load.

There are 3 common pressure levels for the 45-70
28kpsi for original trapdoor rifles and other old black powder guns.
45kpsi for Winchester 1886 and Marlin 1895 leverguns.
And lastly 65kpsi for the Ruger #1.

So there is several flavors of that bonbon.


A 40-82 loaded to BP levels with smokeless will hurl a 240grain bullet along at 2150fps all day long, try that with a 44MAG!

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[pietro]

.

My observation of what "obsolete" means regarding cartridges can mean:

* From an economic standpoint, there is insufficient demand for the cartridge to tool up for & manufacture.

* Manufacturers no longer chamber for it, as a matter of course.



A projectile doesn't know what it's being fired from...…


Ergo, the same weight bullet (like, say 350gr), fired in different barrels (like .429", .458", etc), can be loaded with the correct powder to the same terminal ballistics - provided there is ample room in the cartridge case for the powder charges, and the barrel/action is strong enough.


.

[longbow]

RED BEAR said it "magnumitis"!

.45-70 and many other relatively large bore cartridges were very popular for hunting and target shooting until smokeless powder was invented then those big old slow cartridges suddenly fell out of favour and cartridges like .30-30 took over.

Basically when smokeless powder became common rifle bore diameters got smaller and smaller with bullets being shot at high and higher velocity. The take at the time was that not only did you get much flatter trajectory so easier to hit targets at longer range (which is true) but kinetic energy was king of the hill and it is easy to increase kinetic energy with increase in velocity.

Interesting (to me) is when I started reading about metallic silhouette shooting many years ago it turned out that momentum proved to be better at knocking steel animals down than energy. Light bullets at high velocity tended to "explode" where heavier slower bullets did a better job of knocking the animals over. Big heavy bullets/boolits at moderate velocity generally have flat enough trajectories at "normal" hunting distances to be perfectly adequate and the terminal ballistics are also very effective.

I once read that the average hunter takes his game within 125 yards. Does that hunter really need a 7mm mag or 300 mag for a 125 yard shot? Certainly if the same hunter was shooting at the deer at 300 yards the higher velocity magnum cartridges will provide a much flatter trajectory but in reality there are not that many hunters that can consistently shoot accurately enough to hunt at 300 yards. Many think they can but most I know certainly can't. I don't know that 125 yards is an accurate number but I do know many shooters that shouldn't be taking hunting shots much farther than that.

Yup! There's guys popping prairie dogs at 400 yards but they aren't your average weekend deer hunter. That weekend deer hunter would be better served by a less intense cartridge which results in less bloodshot meat at 125 yards +/-. He'd also be better served by practicing regularly and improving his accuracy. My opinion anyway.

So, no those old "obsolete" cartridges aren't obsolete because they don't and didn't work. They are obsolete because factories don't make ammunition or brass because they have convinced Joe weekend hunter that he needs the newest magnum he can get... even though his grandfathers gun would be just as good for his purposes.

Longbow

[RED BEAR]

RED BEAR said it "magnumitis"!

.45-70 and many other relatively large bore cartridges were very popular for hunting and target shooting until smokeless powder was invented then those big old slow cartridges suddenly fell out of favour and cartridges like .30-30 took over.

Basically when smokeless powder became common rifle bore diameters got smaller and smaller with bullets being shot at high and higher velocity. The take at the time was that not only did you get much flatter trajectory so easier to hit targets at longer range (which is true) but kinetic energy was king of the hill and it is easy to increase kinetic energy with increase in velocity.

Interesting (to me) is when I started reading about metallic silhouette shooting many years ago it turned out that momentum proved to be better at knocking steel animals down than energy. Light bullets at high velocity tended to "explode" where heavier slower bullets did a better job of knocking the animals over. Big heavy bullets/boolits at moderate velocity generally have flat enough trajectories at "normal" hunting distances to be perfectly adequate and the terminal ballistics are also very effective.

I once read that the average hunter takes his game within 125 yards. Does that hunter really need a 7mm mag or 300 mag for a 125 yard shot? Certainly if the same hunter was shooting at the deer at 300 yards the higher velocity magnum cartridges will provide a much flatter trajectory but in reality there are not that many hunters that can consistently shoot accurately enough to hunt at 300 yards. Many think they can but most I know certainly can't. I don't know that 125 yards is an accurate number but I do know many shooters that shouldn't be taking hunting shots much farther than that.

Yup! There's guys popping prairie dogs at 400 yards but they aren't your average weekend deer hunter. That weekend deer hunter would be better served by a less intense cartridge which results in less bloodshot meat at 125 yards +/-. He'd also be better served by practicing regularly and improving his accuracy. My opinion anyway.

So, no those old "obsolete" cartridges aren't obsolete because they don't and didn't work. They are obsolete because factories don't make ammunition or brass because they have convinced Joe weekend hunter that he needs the newest magnum he can get... even though his grandfathers gun would be just as good for his purposes.

Longbow

Spelling ain't my strong suit. Sorry.

[Binky]

"Obsolete" is a subjective term. There are a couple of dozen guys(and maybe some gals) that are regulars on the boards, that load for some rather strange calibers(and the rifles / handguns to go with them). I may not understand the reasoning behind their projects but they do and that is all that is important. I enjoy reading about the progress made and the success / failure of each step in the process. A cartridge is only, truly, "obsolete" when there is nobody left who remembers what it is or there aren't any guns left to shoot it from or any possible way to make ammo(no mater how much work is involved in the process). Just my opinion and we all know that an opinion and a banana will make you popular at the monkey cage in the Zoo.

[GregLaROCHE]

This first time I’ve heard about states allowing straight walled cartridges in shotgun only areas. It makes sense, if you can shoot a twelve gauge magnum slug out of a rifled barrel.

[country gent]

There's a lot of reasons for working with the old weird and wonderful. For some its nostalgia. ( Like me picking up odd 25 rimfire rounds for my Aunts rolling block), Some just want to put a fine firearm back into use either limited or more, Some want to prove disprove the old tales or stories. And some do it just for the challenge.

Several states now have "expanded" the allowed firearms cartridges allowed for deer hunting to include rifle handgun rounds some have a case length limit also. The one thing these have done is raise interest in the old rounds and the firearms for them.

[15meter]

As for obsolete big bores, there's absolutely nothing like the "TONK" sound when you drop a pair in something like this:


I've taken loaded rounds back out just to drop them back in to be able to listen

470 Nitro Express, for fun shooting, a boolit mold for a Ruger 480 makes a dandy dinger ringer.

[Petander]

My Marlin 1895 moose load for the last 20 years has been Hornady 350 FN @ 2150 fps. VVN130. Got many a moose.


Had three Marlins,heard about blowing them up all the time. "1200 is all you need bla bla". Not blown up one yet but I'm sure I will.

I also shoot 300 WM for those longer field shots. Practise 300&500 m regularly. 5kJ loads, yes it will blow up. And now I got a 500 S&W,too,for a long time. I like heavy ,hard 12 gauge slugs... Vihtavuori powders,no data, sure will blow up!

I'm wrong and it's okay. Because I'm happy.

[smkummer]

I believe ( no wait-I know!) there is a big satisfaction level for bringing these old cartridges and firearms back to shooting/ hunting status. It can be a real challenge finding or making brass for some. When it’s all done and to hear a steel plate “ping” at 200 yards and beyond or a deer drops DRT from a big slow moving bullet that makes a “whomp” when it hits.......it most likely seems all worth it. Life needs these special moments.

[David LaPell]

As long as one guy is loading it, shooting it and taking it out to do what it was designed to do, it's not obsolete. It's just old fashioned. Sure, my '74 Ford pick up doesn't hold a candle technologically to a new F-150, but if I put stuff in the box, my truck will get it there too, maybe not as fast or in style, but it will do.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

As long as one guy is loading it, shooting it and taking it out to do what it was designed to do, it's not obsolete. It's just old fashioned. Sure, my '74 Ford pick up doesn't hold a candle technologically to a new F-150, but if I put stuff in the box, my truck will get it there too, maybe not as fast or in style, but it will do.

I agree. Old guns chambered for old cartridges will not just fade to obvilion!

[Shawlerbrook]

Not as long as guys like us are still around.