Red dot and 32 s& w LONG

[waco]

I don't own a 32 anything but I have just started loading some H&G68's with Redot in .45ACP for a Kimber. A new powder for me in .45ACP
Interesting thread to say the least.

[Green Frog]

Thread cleaned up and reopened for discussion.

Thanks, No_1. The information contained in this thread and the quality of the ideas being exchanged by the legitimate participants make it valuable to those of us who actually spend time loading and shooting the various 32s. I for one plan to resume the discussion with a renewed positive tone.

For several years I’ve bemoaned the passing of Hornady’s swaged SWC FOR 32 S&W. I was further frustrated by the fact that the closest mould design I could find was Lee’s TL design and it wouldn’t work very well with my Lyman Lubri-Sizer. DUH! The swaged bullets did well with their own form of tumble lube (graphite and moly, IIRC) so why was I hung up on lube grooves?

It looks like as soon as I am mobile again I’ll be making the trek to the North West Territories again to visit Dale53 and do some ‘sperimenting. Then I’ll be able to come back and ‘splain how it really was a simple thing to do. At this point I think I’ll try and stick with tried-and-true loads of Bullseye then bring in the “Dots” to see whether I can establish equivalency.

Now to get my new knee working at proper levels!!
Froggie

[Larry Gibson]

Green Frog

I usually cast my TL314-90-SWCs with soft alloys, usually in the 98/1/1 to 97/1.5/1.5 range. They drop from my Lee mould at .314 or slightly over. I then TL them in LLA with a light coat, let dry thoroughly and push size through a Lee .314 die. Or, if another lube is desired, I size and lube in a Lyman 450 with a .314 H&I die. That leaves the TL grooves full of lube. They are used as such in most all my .31 cal rifles and a couple .30 cal rifles with larger throats. They are used as such in my S&W M30 and successfully sized down to .312 for use in my Ruger original run Single Six. They are also push through sized from .312 to .311 for use in tighter throated/chambered .30 cal rifles.

Lubing before any sizing leaves the small TL grooves filled with lube. Then sizing and further sizing in the steps mentioned the lube in the grooves does not allow the grooves to completely squish shut and/or swage away the lube grooves. The grooves are smaller when sized down to .311 but still contain sufficient lube that I've never had a leading problem even in longer barreled rifles at 1000 fps or less. I use mostly the LLA as I've found it to be sufficient for most applications with this bullet.

[Green Frog]

Thanks, Larry. I have one defining constraint on my sizing... the chambers of my recreated Model 16-3 are reamed to a specific .313" so that's what I'll use as my default setting when I set up sizing. If I go through all the steps I'm seeing unfold, I'll probably go to the talented and long-suffering Tom Crone (who does all sorts of specialty machine work for N-SSA shooters and puts up with my flights of fancy) and have him make up a Lee style die reamed to exactly .313" for one of my C-presses. It appears that Dale53 has developed a protocol for some LLA variant that he can apply quickly and have dry quickly. I'm thinking that if I only have to size bullets lubed in this way down .001" I may not even have to add more lube after.

I'm glad I'm having the opportunity to discuss this on this forum, so that I can organize the thoughts circulating between my hallucinations after surgery and the attendant medications. By having a focal point such as this, maybe I'll be able to keep some shred of mental function intact. I hope you the readers of my ramblings won't be too bored or offended by them.



Froggie

[Larry Gibson]

Never tried it because I don't yet have a need for a .313 bullet but once they are lubed "as cast" I see no reason a sizing to .313 couldn't be done as easily as to .314(?). If I didn't have a 6 cavity Lee mould already I'd be with you having a multi-cavity (4 -6 cavity) mould made. Some prefer the heavier 98 - 118 gr bullets but the old standby weight for the 32 S&W and the 32 S&WL was an 88 gr bullet so the 90 gr Lee SWCs suit me fine. I also still have a couple hundred of the Hornady swaged SWCs to use. I also have a 311227 (90 gr RN) mould but haven't cast any with it yet.

If I want heavier loads I have the Lyman 313631 (105 gr GC'd SWC) and the 311316 (115 gr GC'd FN) for heavier magnum loads in the 32 H&R if I want them.

[Green Frog]

Larry, I’ve been able to find DC examples of the Ideal 313445 and 313492 along with a MP 105 gr RNHP and a HBWC, so I should be good to go, but I’ve liked loading that 90-95 gr SWC since Dale53 gifted me a box of the discontinued Hornady swaged bullets. They are just so easy to make up into accurate rounds, so I guess I won’t be satisfied until I have a mould for those too.

Of course I have a variety of heavier moulds for the H&R and FM, but it seems like the real sweet spot for the S&W L is in the 90-100 gr range. My “heavy” bullets run from the classic Ideal 3118 (@ 115 gr) to the big NOE adaptation of the same design that drops at 125 gr with COWW + 2% tin. I really need to stop chasing moulds and develop standard loads for the ones I’ve got, then send any extras down the road.

I was somewhat surprised to find my 313445 bullets tearing ragged holes in fresh, dry targets instead of cutting the nice round holes I expected from a SWC. More experimentation is needed.

Froggie

[Larry Gibson]

"I really need to stop chasing moulds and develop standard loads for the ones I’ve got, then send any extras down the road."

Now ain't that the truth.......

[psweigle]

You guys are awesome.
Thank you no.1 for reopening this thread. Ive got more to earn.

[35remington]

Some chronographed velocities through a 4 inch Colt Police Positive.

I do a lot with the Lee disks, including the Micro Disk, sadly discontinued.

I will list as X.XX CC volumetric measure followed by the Lee claim for the (charge weight) from their table. Some of these I have not recently weighed, so view the charge weight as close but not exactly on. Usually thrown charge weight is a bit lighter than the claim, for understandable reasons. Velocities represent average of six shots.

RCBS 98 SWC:
O.32 CC (2.7) WST 809 fps average
0.30 CC (2.5) WST 775 fps average
0.21 CC (2.0) Bullseye 630 fps average

Lyman 313492
O.32 CC (2.7) WST 903 fps average....too much speed for my taste. Note velocity gain versus RCBS. Bullet is 10 grains lighter but also more deeply seated
0.30 CC (2.5) WST 850 average (12 shots). More comfortable with this one.

RCBS 98 WC
0.15 CC (1.8) Titegroup 712 average
0.24 CC (2.0) WST 760 average......a little faster than I prefer
0.21 CC (1.8) WST 690 average. Between these two at around 700-720 fps is where I want to be.
O.21 CC (2.0) Bullseye 701 average

By no means all I have to offer but a sample from the last range session a little over two months ago.

Note the velocity the RCBS WC gets with little charges of powder. Deeply seated. The RCBS 98 is actually the NOE clone of about 101 grains, and is the opposite of the RCBS WC. About the same weight, but much more shallowly seated. The RCBS SWC bullet needs a little more powder to get the same speed than some other 98 SWC and RN types that seat more deeply.

[35remington]

A tenth of a grain means a lot in this cartridge especially with wadcutters, so changes of any sort have potentially more effect on the actual velocity obtained. All the above was shot with PPU cases and WSP primers.

If results are gonna vary, the 32 Long will see that realized. Especially with wadcutters.

[psweigle]

Thank you for posting the wadcutter information. I may have to get some of those later on to try. I find them at gun shows occasionally.

[35remington]

Depending upon how you seat them, whether nearly flush or with some amount of bullet outside the case makes a big difference with wadcutters of the swaged variety. Target autoloaders use pretty much flush seated HBWC’s and get velocities equal to or greater than what I have posted using less powder.

Note that due to greater case wall thickness Starline does not recommend their cases be used with deeply seated wadcutters. Their cases also get somewhat more velocity with identical charge weights as compared to other brands for the same reason.

[35remington]

One other thing to note is powder differences that I can’t explain. Generally WST gets a little less velocity than Bullseye with the same charge weight and that holds true with the more shallowly seated bullets.

But with the WC’s and the claimed thrown weight in the charts 2.0 WST actually outruns 2.0 Bullseye by a fair amount. Hmm. Keep in mind, as I have said, that I am taking Lee’s word for what these disks are throwing in some instances. It may be Bullseye is throwing notably less than claimed or other such reason.

As case space is reduced differences between powder burn rates may go away...or get accentuated in a divergent direction, so beware, proceed carefully and for gosh’s sake get a chronograph so you get the speed you want to get and not the speed you hope you are getting based on someone else’s results that may differ due to one of the multitudinous reasons I have mentioned.

My results are a guide but not definitive because someone else uses different loading methods or components.

[psweigle]

I have starline brass. I will take your advice. Thank you.

[Green Frog]

35Remington,

Your posts do a good job of reinforcing a very important point. Since the 32 S&W L is such a small case with such a tiny "boiler room," even the smallest changes in case wall thickness, powder charge (or lot strength) can be very significant. When you load a 44 Magnum with 20 grains or so of some random powder, a charge variation of .2 grains or seating the bullet .10" deeper is no big deal. In the little 32 however, all the dimensions are so tiny that any variation at all can cause huge changes in pressure or performance. A good powder measure (checked with a scale) as well as appropriate powders (in conservative charges) are vital until you've got results for your gun. As a for instance, the difference between various wadcutters, hollow base vs solid, flush seated vs seated out, etc, etc can make a huge difference in pressure.

"Be careful out there!"

Froggie

[35remington]

The 32 Long case is the shortest case I can come up with where deeply seated wadcutters are commonly used.

From a four inch revolver a 38 Special can run a 148 wadcutter up to 870-900 fps at standard pressures depending upon powder, with only about 30-40 fps difference between Bullseye and Power Pistol. The slower powders don’t show a huge velocity improvement in such loads over the fast powders.

For wadcutters adhering to the SAAMI pressure spec the 32 Long can’t come close to that in terms of velocity for the same barrel length.....the shorter case and smaller capacity make that speed not possible.

[Larry Gibson]

35Remington's recommendation of "As case space is reduced differences between powder burn rates may go away...or get accentuated in a divergent direction, so beware, proceed carefully and for gosh’s sake get a chronograph so you get the speed you want" is a very good one as he relates probable case capacity differences between brass. It also is essential to pay attention to with respect to seating depth of various cast bullets. However, still be careful as the chronograph results may not tell all that is really going on psi wise, especially given the faster burning powders used in the 32 S&WL.

As I have mentioned numerous times in other threads seating depth is far more critical to pressures in handgun cases than many realize. I can give numerous examples but a recent test in the 357 Magnum may give a clear idea of how much pressure can vary given an identical load with the same bullet. A few months back I ran this pressure test to measure psi increase as the bullet was seated deeper;

Cartridge: 357 Magnum
Case: Winchester
Primer: CCI 500
Powder & charge: Alliant Green Dot - 5.0 gr.
Bullet: TL358-158-SWC
Alloy: COWW + 2% tin AC'd
Sized: .358
Lube: BAC

Test barrel: Contender 7.94"

Instrumentation: Oehler M43 PBL

Ambient temperature: 65 degrees
Humidity: 30%
Barometric pressure: 29.90

The velocity is fps as corrected via the M43 to the muzzle.
The AOL of the cartridge is listed.
Bullet seating depth was decreased .050" between tests.
Each bullet depth test consisted of a 9 shot test string.

AOL.........Velocity.........psi
1.632 1083 24,500 (bullet seated hard into leade)
1.582 1080 23,900
1.482 1139 32,500
1.432 1149 35,700

Note just a .150" difference in seating depth resulted in the psi jumping/increasing from 23,900 to 35,700! That was with the 357 case so we can expect the smaller 32 S&WL to be as critical. Also, if you have pulled any factory 88 gr RNL bullets from factory 32 S&W and/or the 32 S&WL you will see the swaged factory bullets are not seated very deep, not as deep as we seat most cast bullets. That's why I seat the Speer 98 gr WCs out to the 1st canalure groove and the TL314-90-SWC bullet out to the 2nd lube groove for my own loads. Sometimes in reporting test data I do seat them deeper but the AOL is always noted when I report the data.

[Thumbcocker]

FWIW is was gifted with several thousand factory 88 grain LRN boolits. they have a waxy graphity lube a slight concave base and measure .314.

[psweigle]

I had a chance to do some more shooting and the results were an eye opener.
The round ball load, unsized case with new primer and 1 grain of bullseye. This was a hoot. And I was surprised at how accurate it was.

The boolits from Mr. Green Frog. Mihec 314690 hollow point, starline sized and primed case, 1.6 grains red dot firm crimp. I only loaded six this way. I could tell right away that the old hand ejecter favored this boolit over the lee 100 gr round nose. The cases were no where near as smokey, and the recoil was more pronounced. I didn't have the chronograph set up, but I know the velocity was increased. This boolit was the proper diameter and what a difference. Point of aim and point of impact were good as well.

[psweigle]

Oh, and I did 6 with 2.5 grains of bullseye. Those were VERY clean cases upon ejection. They also shot much higher. Most anyone would much prefer this in their 32 s&w long.