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Thread: Red dot and 32 s& w LONG

  1. #21
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    Lyman #3 cast manual lists 70 gr cast with max of 4 grains of Unique.

    And shows Red Dot under a 93 gr from 1.7 gr to 3.0.

    I have no issue with larry's data. Falls right into line with mine.

    Red Bear, I have nothing but respect for you. But before inserting foot into mouth check 2 things.
    A Not disagreeing with Outpost 75 or Larry G.
    B Double check your facts.

    Either one of those would have saved you much grief and aggravation.

    Just accept the fact that both of them live on a plain above ours. They choose to spend time here because they are good people with a strong dose of humility and an urge to help. See a post by either one, just sit down and figure on it till you have it understood. Chances are you can take it to the bank. IE their work and reputation is as good as gold.


    In your defense, you had the best possible motives. Safety of othersl But with these 2, calmly, slowly.

    They are both good people. When in doubt, give them the benifet of the doubt. Best of luck to ya Red Bear.

    (Tip o the hat to larry G and Outpost75)

  2. #22
    DOR RED BEAR's Avatar
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    Like i say i will pick up a lyman manual because this is way over any load i can find for a 32sw long.
    In my manuals these are 32 hr magnum loads. As far as my mentioning blowing up guns i mention it to caution going over listed charges and no they were not with this gun or powder both were with h110 a 44 and a 357. I have also had bad experiences with guns that never should have been shot. As a person who has been hurt i would hate to see it happen to anyone else.
    But i can admit when i am wrong. And again to larry gibson again i APOLOGIZE.
    now as far as putting my foot in mouth i know the taste of it well.

  3. #23
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    RED BEAR

    No apology needed, this has been a good discussion all things considered. It's discussions like this that separate fact from fiction, truth from myth and help negate old wives tales. As we know, there are plenty of misconceptions about "max" loads in reloading. There are numerous reasons manuals have different max loads for basically the same kind of components........pressure is one of them but not the only one.

    One myth, advent of the last 20-30 years since most manufacturers began adhering to SAAMI standards, is that all max loads listed are at the SAAMI MAP pressure wise. Many are but some aren't. Also numerous cartridges have different levels of loads (again pressure wise) based on the firearm they are intended to be used in. This had been done for over 100 years not only in reloading but also in factory produced ammunition.

    Also most believe all factory ammunition is loaded to the SAAMI MAP pressure wise. That is many times the case, especially with premium ammunition and the newer modern magnums, but most often not with the manufacturers general run of the mill ammunition.

    The problem with both is unless you can measure the pressure you don't really know. That is why staying within published load data, as you recommend, that has been pressure tested for the type of firearm we are using it in, as i also often recommend, is the best course. However, if we actually have pressure tested data that is within the pressures of a firearms capabilities we can also use that data. The pressure tested data presented in this, and several other .32 threads, can safely be used in firearms made for that pressure level. [Note I said "made for", not "designed for" as there is a difference.]

    Let us understand that SAAMI is a volunteer organization that sets standards for manufacturers of arms and ammunition. There is no legal requirement for manufacturers to belong to SAAMI or to adhere to SAAMI standards. Most do for liability reasons these days. Also SAAMI has not set "standards" for all commercial cartridges nor does it set standards for any wildcat or "improved" cartridges (unless they are adopted by manufacturers as a standard cartridge). SAAMI pressure standards for many cartridges are also set for the oldest, weakest firearms they may be used in......the 32 S&WL is an example. As mentioned those cartridges can be, and are, safely loaded to higher pressures for use in firearms they are safe to use in.

    Anyways, been a good discussion.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  4. #24
    DOR RED BEAR's Avatar
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    Yea larry i have no way to measure pressure as such must rely on published data and i know that data can vary greatly from one manual to another. I am still building my library of manuals as such i do not have access to them all. I don't hunt so my main concern is accuracy and not power. My wife is very recoil sensitive my hands have a bit of arthritis so i can't take the recoil i used to. All of this leads to me loading on the light side.
    Anyway glad no hard feelings.
    May you and yours have a nice day.

  5. #25
    Boolit Buddy JoeJames's Avatar
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    A little off the thread, but it is germane to the cast 100 gr round nose bullet. Cousin had given me a golden bullet tub of 100 grain lead round nose grain bullets; so rather than melt them down, I figured to try them out in the 631 and the pre Model 30 (made around 1952). Theory for the pre Model 30 was that since it had fixed sights, and the 100 grain lead round nose bullet on top of 2.1 grains of Bullesye was the standard load back then it might be accurate. I have been tied to swc's for a long time, and I thought maybe it was time to branch out. As you can see from the nut can bottom, they will do for plunking around. The round nose bullet would probably not positively put down an armadillo, but it does shoot to point of aim well.

    Click image for larger version. 

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  6. #26
    Boolit Master
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    Thank you all for reassuring me that I wasnt off base with my choice. I will report back tomorrow and let you all know how it went.

  7. #27
    Boolit Master
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    Ok. So, point of aim and point of impact at 20 feet are PERFECT from the hand ejecter. Mild recoil and surprisingly accurate for the lee boolit being .311.was able to recover a boolit and the powder coating was still intact. Thank you all for your help and guidance. I'm calling it a successful load.

  8. #28
    Boolit Buddy
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    I have loading manuals from the mid 60's (telling my age), and the differences between those and the newer can be eye opening. I no longer load to max, grew out of that a long time ago. I have found that, in my experience it depends on the gun. I have found that some need near max loads to shoot well, others like it mild. Some guns can take a lot of pressure ie. Ruger's Jap military, rifles etc. That dosen't mean that you should push them past recommended loads. Powders are strange; when you find one that your gun likes stick to it. A change, as most of yu know, in a bullet, the lead formula, powder type or charge, even primer can make a big difference. Some guns will shoot anything you stick in the chamber, others are fussy. That is why most guns are named after women. I shoulden't have said that.
    BD

  9. #29
    DOR RED BEAR's Avatar
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    Yes i actually love my hand ejector. Just plain fun. But i like pretty much all the old stuff. Like the top breaks to.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by RED BEAR View Post
    Yes i actually love my hand ejector. Just plain fun. But i like pretty much all the old stuff. Like the top breaks to.
    I don't have a top break yet, but I would like to have one. Preferably a pre-'99, which I would load with black powder.
    I was looking at one on gunbroker. The seller clearly stated what year it was made (pre-'99) but had it listed as FFL required. I sent a PM asking about it and got no reply. That's ok because now I know not to buy anything from that particular seller.

  11. #31
    DOR RED BEAR's Avatar
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    Check gun broker there are tons of them. I have two shelves full. Some as cheap as $30. If you are a little handy some need a little work. But there are a lot of parts still available. I have a 2 inch ivor johnson 32 sw that i use as a carry gun on occasion. These are a blast to shoot and very economical to load.

  12. #32
    Boolit Master
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    Yeah, I was looking at some last night. Then started going down the rabbit hole of reading posts by Bill Goforth and Jim Hauff on the Firearms Forum, again. Too bad we lost those two.

  13. #33
    Boolit Master
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    Don't have one of those yet. But I'm sure I will.

  14. #34
    DOR RED BEAR's Avatar
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    I really don't mean to get this going again but just got the lyman cast bullet guide in and by any stretch of the imagination the load i questioned is above the max load for a 93 gr lee rn.
    It is above anything listed for a 32 magnum and only .3 under the max load for a 327 magnum.
    Larry i do understand that you have the pressure testing equipment. And have done a lot more testing than me .( I have dine none ). The load for a 98 grain rcbs wadcutter for the 327 mag list a 4.3 grain unique charge as max at 31,600 psi. I do realize that a wadcutter does seat deeper in the case but this is a 327 mag. Now i do see higher charges with lighter bullets.
    This manual also list 2.7 grains of unique as max with 14800 psi with a saeco #326 100 grain bullet for the 32hr magnum.
    For the 32 sw long it list 2.6 grains of unique as max for the saeco#326 100 grain bullet no pressure listed.
    I never knew that the saami numbers were just recommendations but i will gladly take your word for this.
    But since you yourself list the 4.0 grain unique at 19,000 this i around 25% higher than the max pressure for the 32 sw long .
    I really feel justified in cautioning that this is a hot load for a gun you have never seen. And do not know the condition of.
    The 98 gr swc 4.0 gr of unique seems to be more suited for a 32 hr mag or a 327 mag than a 32 long.
    Larry gibson i will freely acknowledge that you know more about this than i do. But recommending a load 25% over the sammi max for a gun that is more than 100 years old that you don't know the condition.
    I am sorry but i feel justified in cautioning that these are a bit hot.
    Gostkawk there is a big difference in a 70 grain and a 98 grain bullet about 25% difference.
    As far as my foot in my mouth i have grown accustomed to the taste and am sure i will enjoy the taste for years to come.

  15. #35
    Boolit Grand Master


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    "But recommending a load 25% over the sammi max for a gun that is more than 100 years old that you don't know the condition."

    For crying out loud RED BEAR, you obviously spent a bit of time going over the Lyman data and have a grasp of it. However,, also obviously, you failed to give my post the same scrutiny. Here is the post you seem to misunderstand;

    "Some recently posted pressure test results. Note; Red Dot is very similar to Bullseye in psi per gr used.

    The test firearm was a Contender With a 10” barrel chambered in 32 H&R Magnum and a strain gauge affixed over the chamber at the prescribed SAAMI location for pressure measurement. The gauge was connected to the Oehler m43 and its attendant software in a laptop. I was able to measure the pressure and muzzle velocity of the assorted 32 S&W cartridges.

    As a reference:
    32 H&R Magnum
    Federal 32 H&R 85 gr LSWC factory ammunition ran 1217 fps (987 fps out of 6 ˝” Ruger SS) at 18,200 psi.
    A Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 3.2 gr Bullseye ran 1128 fps at 16,500 psi

    32 S&WL;
    Federal factory WCs; 12,000 psi
    Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 2.8 gr Bullseye ran 1060 fps at 16,800 psi (880 fps out of my M30 S&W with 3” barrel)
    Lee TL 90 gr SWC over 3.2 gr Bullseye ran 1165 fps at 19,300 psi.
    98 gr cast SWC over 2.5 gr Bullseye ran 944 fps at 15,000 psi.
    98 gr cast SWC over 4 gr Unique ran 1101 at 19,000 psi

    Also there is considerable Pressure data (tested) with 115 gr cast in this thread.

    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...nique-PSI-Test”


    No where in that post do I “recommend” any load. The post, just as stated, provides “Some recently posted pressure test results” which I put in red so maybe you would notice and understand(?) Simply posting test results is not recommending anything.

    Red Dot is very similar in Burning rate giving the same level pressures with the same charges as Bullseye. That is why I put in bold the 2.5 gr Bullseye load for the OP. If anyone OTHER THAN YOU should assume I recommended any load it would have been that one. That load of Bullseye in bold neither exceeds the SAAMI MAP for the 32 S&WL. The Lyman CBH max load of 2.4 gr Bullsue for the 100 gr cast bullet (different bullets can and do give different pressures) does not list a pressure so you have no idea whether it exceeded 15,000 psi or not. We do know the 2.5 gr load with the 98 gr cast bullet I put in bold does not exceed the SAAMI MAP because the psi was measured.

    Then In post #7 I stated to you; “There is absolutely nothing "hot" about this load for use in the OPs S&W revolver; 98 gr cast SWC over 2.5 gr Bullseye ran 944 fps at 15,000 psi. That load is within the SAMMI MAP for that cartridge. Any of the other loads are entirely within the capability of the OP's Ruger 101 chambered in 327 Magnum. Actually all the loads posted are rather anemic compared to the 327 Magnums psi.”

    As to the "100 year old gun" comment......show me any scientific facts where age alone weakens steel. Also consider 140+ year old M1973 TDs are held to 28,000 psi SAAMI MAP.......I guess they don't get weaker as the years go by as does the OPs S&W........

    So do us all a favor.......understand, if you can, simply posting test results is not recommending anything.........take your foot out of your mouth and give it a rest.
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 07-08-2019 at 09:20 PM.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  16. #36
    DOR RED BEAR's Avatar
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    I will admit that since the op was asking for advice for a starting load. I thought that is what you were giving my mistake.
    As far as the 100 year old part i just ment that a lot can happen in 100 yrs and with out seeing the gun you would have no idea of the condition and what pressure it might handle. But since you didn't mean to offer these loads for use. Then i guess it was ok. Not sure why reply to someone asking advice on starting loads with load data you don't intend for them to use.
    When confronted by other members stating that these loads were inline with listed data i had to relinquish as i didn't have the lyman manual.
    As i said before the load that concerned me was not with red dot or bulls eye but unique. This load that you list a 98 gr swc over 4 grains of unique. No where in a single manual can i find a load anywhere near this in 32 sw long as such i said it was a bit hot. At your listed pressure that is about 25% over the saami listed max pressure.
    If this is not a bit hot then what is it?
    It very well may work in this or that gun
    But to chastise me for stating the obvious i do not feel is right.
    Not entirely sure why you would give this data to someone asking for starting load data but as i said earlier i will agree that you probably know more than i do about these matters. But i can read manuals to and as i say again all i said was that it was a bit hot and i still stand by that for that one load .

  17. #37
    DOR RED BEAR's Avatar
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    Oh by the way as for my foot in my mouth i have really gotten used to the taste. Also in later post you state that the op's guns both of them can handle the pressure. You claim that the unique load was for the ruger but nowhere do you say that. As far as sw advertisement stating that the 32 sw could be shot i the hand ejector this is true as before the late 30's early 1940 it was a black powder cartridge it wasn't until after the 40's that it was loaded exclusively with smokeless powder.
    Last edited by RED BEAR; 07-08-2019 at 11:05 PM.

  18. #38
    Boolit Grand Master


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    RED BEAR

    "I will admit that since the op was asking for advice for a starting load..........Not sure why reply to someone asking advice on starting loads with load data you don't intend for them to use."

    Because the OP didn't ask for "starting loads" is why. The OP didn't ask for thoughts on just loading for the S&W but also the Ruger 327 magnum is why. The OP didn't say he wanted a load good for both only. Here is his post;

    "I am casting the lee 100 grain round nose, and powder coating. The guns are a 1903 s&w hand ejecter made around 1917, and a ruger sp101 327 fed mag.
    From what I have read, re-read, and researched, 1.6 gr of RD is about the right charge. Does this sound reasonable, or am I thinking wrong. Any help is appreciated as I am new to the 32 caliber handgun game.”

    The OP asked for “any help” and that’s what I posted. All of the loads I posted are quite safe in the Ruger and the one load in bold is quite safe in the S&W. Given actual pressure testing of 32 S&W (the short one) which is deemed safe and recommended with current factory loads in all "old" 32 S&WLs, including your break open ones, the other loads would also be safe in the OPs S&W solid frame revolver. That's based on the actual measured pressures of factory 32 S&W (the short one).

    Here is the result of actual testing of 32 S&W cartridge two of which were BP loads. Note four of them exceed the SAAMI MAP for the 32 S&WL cartridge........and two of those four were old BP loads.

    The results of the 32 S&W factory ammunition;

    Winchester Western 86 gr Lubaloy LRN; 786 fps at 18,900 psi
    Winchester W-W; 727 fps at 15,300 psi
    Winchester [WRA]; 729 fps at 16,300 psi
    Remington [R-P]; 676 fps at 14,200 psi
    Federal [F C] 86 gr FMJRN; 833 fps at 17,900 fps
    Winchester [WRA] 86 gr FMJRN; 780 fps at 14,000 psi

    You seem to think Lyman or other manuals don't have loads that exceed SAAMI MAPs.....you are wrong there too. Look in your Lyman manual and you find several cartridges with loads above the SAAMI MAP for the cartridge[the 45-70 and 44-40 for example]....some by more the 25% you seen to think is too hot.

    You really should start reading and understanding what you’re talking about. I deal in facts not your opinions.
    Last edited by Larry Gibson; 07-09-2019 at 12:56 AM.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  19. #39
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by RED BEAR View Post
    Oh by the way as for my foot in my mouth i have really gotten used to the taste. Also in later post you state that the op's guns both of them can handle the pressure. You claim that the unique load was for the ruger but nowhere do you say that. As far as sw advertisement stating that the 32 sw could be shot i the hand ejector this is true as before the late 30's early 1940 it was a black powder cartridge it wasn't until after the 40's that it was loaded exclusively with smokeless powder.
    It's still not loaded exclusively with smokeless powder. But the standard factory loads have been smokeless since 1903, and revolvers made since then have been designed for smokeless. Even the H&R and IJ top breaks were rated for smokeless by 1906 or so, at the latest.
    Castpics used to archive some old manuals, including the Ideal No. 38. Those don't seem to be there any more. But I have a 1964 edition that lists 4.3 Unique under the 95 grain No. 313226 roundnose, and 4.0 Unique under the 105 grain 31133 hollowpoint, in .32 Long and New Police. There is no warning against shooting it in whatever .32 Long or N.P. revolver you have. .32 H&R Mag didn't exist in 1964, nor did .327 Fed Mag; and there was no such thing as a Ruger revolver chambered for any .32 cartridge.
    Will I be shooting those loads in my early '20s .32 HE? Probably not, but I seriously doubt that it would hurt it to do so.

    Btw, the 4.0 Unique/ 100 grain Remington jsp load I quoted before was from the Lyman Pistol & Revolver Handbook. Mine is a 7th printing, 1989 but the first printing was in 1978. At that time there was still no such animal as .32 H&R Mag, .327 Fed Mag, nor a Ruger .32 revolver. Here's another .32 S&W Long load from that same book: 3.7 grains of Unique under the 115 grain No. 3118. Again, listed as fine for all solid frame revolvers in good condition.

  20. #40
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    Everyone slow down and take a breather. This is a great thread, if it goes off the rails it will be locked.
    "Things always get better once thought, time, and money are applied in the correct amounts at the correct time"
    - No_1 -

    "The only way to deal with an unfree world is to become so absolutely free that your very existence is an act of rebellion."
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check