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Thread: Trapdoor carbine load question?

  1. #21
    Boolit Mold
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    When I was at Tulsa this spring. A gentleman next to my table was telling me he uses H4198. Went looking for some and couldn't find it anywhere at the show. Maybe I need to keep looking...

    Thanks for your post.

    Pete

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carrier View Post
    I use 27 grains of H4198 under the Lee 405 HB powder coated bullet and it is an accurate load. According to Hodgdon H4198 starting load of 27 grains is 14,200 CUP compared to Trailboss starting load of 12 grains at 24,500 CUP.
    However 60 to 65 grains of Goex FF is more accurate with the same bullet lubed.
    Learning how to load with black powder is pretty easy. If I can do it anyone can.
    Is H4198 some sort of super powder?

    That 27 grains load only burns @75% of the powder in a 30" barrel.
    Seems like a waste that could be remedied with a little less of a faster powder for the same result.

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by 17nut View Post
    Is H4198 some sort of super powder?

    That 27 grains load only burns @75% of the powder in a 30" barrel.
    Seems like a waste that could be remedied with a little less of a faster powder for the same result.
    Not sure what you are talking about.

  4. #24
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    Loses something in translation,I suspect..........I think 4198 is the fastest of the IMR powders,which of course no longer exist ,since Du Pont no longer make powder.........I find it quite suitable for 45/70,but it is still somewhat position sensitive........In bigger cases ,supposedly recommended 4198 loads hangfire something terrible,and are certainly sensitive,and IMHO probably need the foam rod treatment..........and the next thing is "how I ringed my chamber with foam excluder rod."

  5. #25
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    I use 2400 in original Trapdoors. I shot cast 322gr Gould Express Hp/ 20.5gr H-2400 at 1300fps. The 405gr I don't shoot that much but load is with H-2400 too. In my #1,#3 and Marlin 1895 I use IMR-3031 and JHPs.

  6. #26
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    I just don’t get what is being said about H4198 powder. I’ve shot several hundred of the load I talked about in my 1873 Trapdoor and have not experienced anything like what is being said about it. I use no fillers of any sort when loading smokeless powder.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Gibson View Post
    "Something like 5744 without filler should never cause something like that as it is supposed to be insensitive to position and is designed to function normally with a lot of air space in a case such as 45/70. "

    That's what the advertising hype says but it ain't so, especially with 45-70 carbine level loads.
    Thank you! That has been my experience also.
    AA 5744 is a double based powder too. I do not know why but it is rumored Dacron, not a pushed down wad of it, but a loose fluff, is not a good idea with double based powders so ....Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	244560 I don't know if this is true or not.

    Floral foam is the product often used in smokeless Schuetzen breach seated loads like the 32-40 with a small charge of #9. Pictured is a 38-56 Winchester with an undisclosed powder.
    Chill Wills

  8. #28
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    The problem with all the old blackpowder calibers is they have too much space for smokeless powder......or to put it another way,the vast majority of smokeless powders are not designed with these old rounds in mind.A few are...........If you have a strong enough rifle ,and shoulder ,the large space can be used to full capacity for very powerful loads.....But very few want this,so the cases consequently have excessive space for the powder charge......However this is resolved is up to you.....And I might add,I went from the "Ill never ring a chamber" side to the "Gee,I wonder why cases are jamming?"side.....to the .....Gee ,it only took a hundred rounds with a couple of grains of powder...pipsqueak loads.

  9. #29
    Boolit Master 40-82 hiker's Avatar
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    JMHO, but I would use aa5744 or BP. Some don't like the unburned powder left with aa5744 when used at the pressures we are talking about, but I use it in my original TD, original '86 Win, and RB. Accurate too... Never a problem... But, I am partial to it admittedly.

    edit: cast your chamber so you know what is going on. I use 20:1 alloy.
    Last edited by 40-82 hiker; 07-02-2019 at 12:53 AM.

  10. #30
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    Most powders do that at low pressures. The low pressures are courtesy of the antique rifle and not the fault of the powder. Got to a very fast powder and you might ring the chamber of an old rifle.
    I use hotter loads to get rid of the un-burned particles but my Sharps is a modern replica.

    Quote Originally Posted by 17nut View Post
    Is H4198 some sort of super powder?

    That 27 grains load only burns @75% of the powder in a 30" barrel.
    Seems like a waste that could be remedied with a little less of a faster powder for the same result.
    EDG

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chill Wills View Post
    Thank you! That has been my experience also.
    AA 5744 is a double based powder too. I do not know why but it is rumored Dacron, not a pushed down wad of it, but a loose fluff, is not a good idea with double based powders so ....Click image for larger version. 

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ID:	244559Click image for larger version. 

Name:	lube and floral foam block 003.jpg 
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ID:	244560 I don't know if this is true or not.

    Floral foam is the product often used in smokeless Schuetzen breach seated loads like the 32-40 with a small charge of #9. Pictured is a 38-56 Winchester with an undisclosed powder.
    Big difference there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The breach seaters use the foam to plug the powderfilled case so it will not spill into the action, NOT seated against the powder.
    The "plug" will automatically rest against the bullet and no ringing will be possible at all.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by 17nut View Post
    Big difference there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    The breach seaters use the foam to plug the powderfilled case so it will not spill into the action, NOT seated against the powder.
    The "plug" will automatically rest against the bullet and no ringing will be possible at all.
    No. In the small case capicity rifles we use the foam both takes up most of the room holding back the powder and plugs the case for no spill loading during the match.
    The Dacron in that application does the same. I have used Dacron in my Schuetzen cases too. Same same.
    In the 32-40 you are correct in that the floral foam is just a plug to retain the powder.
    In either case, Dacron or floral foam holds the powder with out being a dense filler. It is 99+ % empty air.
    Chill Wills

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by EDG View Post
    Most powders do that at low pressures. The low pressures are courtesy of the antique rifle and not the fault of the powder. Got to a very fast powder and you might ring the chamber of an old rifle.
    I use hotter loads to get rid of the un-burned particles but my Sharps is a modern replica.
    All good points. I had been using 4198 for my loads in both the 11.7 Danish Remington (fireformed .45-70 brass) and my 1868 Springfield .50-70: Lots of unburned kernels, and the powder is very position sensitive.
    The use of a paper filler (hello, Charmin!!!) cured that, but reading lots of postings, I decided the best bet is to go with a powder that doesn't need a filler.
    I have started using 5744: This feels like I've eliminated the position sensitivity issues. There still is a bunch of unburned powder, but with a cavernous case and low pressure, it may simply be the nature of the beast.
    I'm happy with the 5744 and will probably stick with it. I'm using about 25 grains as a starting point with both calibers.
    For the Danish, I am using the Lee 405 grain HB bullet, the Springfield has a genuine Spencer 365 grain .516" bullet (which is light compared to the original 425 grain bullet).
    I'm not hot rodding anything in 130-150 year old guns.
    I'm sticking with powders that mirror the ignition timing and pressure curves of 2F black powder (Trail Boss is definitely out!).
    Best of Luck!

    -Tom

  14. #34
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    I shoot almost exclusively BP in my single shots, but when I want to use smokeless in a .45-70 I use H-4198 loads from the Hodgdon's Trapdoor load data. They work very well in any of the rifles I've used them in. The only thing I do differently is to use a magnum primer. In cold weather I have experienced ignition troubles which the magnum primers solved. I've tried a bunch of powders and the only one I liked more for "original-style" loads was the now discontinued SR-4759.

    Chris.

  15. #35
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    Anyone else use H4895 or Varget in these old BP calibers? They too leave some unburned residue but no worse than some of the others with the advantage that it will nearly fill the case even at low pressure loadings. I use both powders in both 45/70 and 45-90 cases and get good accuracy and a reasonably clean burn, case position does not seem to be an issue at all even in BP equivalent loads which still take up a lot of the empty case space that powders like 5744 wouldn't even come close to doing in the these big cases.
    Last edited by oldred; 07-15-2019 at 10:40 AM.
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  16. #36
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    aa5744 is meant for 19th century large capacity cases. it is not location sensitive. it will almost always not burn all the powder granules. it is quite accurate and when sr4759 was discontinued, aa5744 became the smokeless powder of choice for the replica guns (NOT the old old guns, which require black powder).

    FWIW, since aa5744 is double based, it is against the quigley match rules to employ fillers or wads as that practice is considered dangerous and has been attributed to at least a few blown rifles. in fact, no smokeless powder should be loaded that way in those old design cartridge cases.

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    better yet, stop messing with smokeless powders for guns designed before the introduction of that white devil dust stuff. use real black powder, and not that substitute junk, either. there is no pressing concern for not loading up with real black powder. i was also a nay sayer for too long until i saw the black light of reason.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by rfd View Post
    use real black powder, and not that substitute junk, either. there is no pressing concern for not loading up with real black powder. i was also a nay sayer for too long until i saw the black light of reason.
    You forgot to add that real black is just way more fun too!

    Also those guys who shoot that phony stuff are cheating themselves because none of those "replics", "substitutes", or whatever they call them are even close to shooting the real thing! They all look, load, shoot and even smell different so in reality using any of them is just a different kind of shooting, neither black or smokeless so why bother?
    Statistics show that criminals commit fewer crimes after they have been shot

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldred View Post
    Anyone else use H4895 or Varget in these old BP calibers? They too leave some unburned residue but no worse than some of the others with the advantage that it will nearly fill the case even at low pressure loadings. I use both powders in both 45/70 and 45-90 cases and get good accuracy and a reasonably clean burn, case position does not seem to be an issue at all even in BP equivalent loads which still take up a lot of the empty case space that powders like 5744 wouldn't even come close to doing in the these big cases.
    I use H4895 with a dacron filler in my rifle 1873 and 1882 duplication 45-70 loads. As mentioned there is some residue but it's not been problematic. H4895 even with the dacron filler in carbine level loads doesn't generate enough psi for efficient burn so I don't use it in carbine level loads.
    Larry Gibson

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  19. #39
    Boolit Mold
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    @larrygibson, your message box is full and I cannot send my message to you!
    Cheers, 40mm

  20. #40
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    Correction:
    In post #13 I stated I use 22gr of IMR4895...
    That is incorrect, it should read 22gr of IMR4198.
    I also use a 1-2 grain tuft of Dacron to keep powder against primer and have enlarged the flash hole slightly to get complete ignition. Rarely do I see unburned granules of powder shooting these loads in my carbine.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check