ADvertise hereMidSouth Shooters SupplyLee PrecisionTitan Reloading
Inline FabricationRepackboxWidenersRotoMetals2

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 41

Thread: Trapdoor carbine load question?

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    16

    Trapdoor carbine load question?

    Any suggestions would be appreciated. Here is my problem..
    I am trying to make a decision on what powder to use for a low pressure load for a new to me 1873 trapdoor carbine made in 1881. I am trying to make a plinking load that will not damage this antique.

    I was set to load black powder with a carbine load, 55gr. of power with a 405gr. HB lee mold bullet, with a wad, etc. I have reloaded a great deal but never black powder. Then after a lot of reading changed my mind to use smokeless using Unique or H4895. I have a lot of each. I reached out to Hodgdon about down loading H4895 and got this email.

    "Only authentic Black Powder such as Goex fg or old eyensford 1.5f should be used in this original rifle. Smokeless powder can only be used in modern made reproductions."

    I could swear hodgdon has load info on their website for loading 1873 trapdoors with smokeless.

    So, now, I am in limbo. Do I need to learn how to load black powder for my TD??

    Sorry, kind of lengthy.

    Pete

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    543
    38.0 grs of imr 3031 with a 405 gr should duplicate the 55 gr black powder load.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master pietro's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    3,572
    .

    It's quite easy to make .45-70 Gallery black powder loads for the .45-70, using commercial (or homemade) .457" round lead balls (from any shop that sells frontstuffer supplies).


    * Clean, sized & prime the case as usually.

    * Pour in 5gr to 15gr of FFFg (test different loads within that span - a 5 gr charge of FFFg gives a velocity of 630 FPS)


    * Use a wooden dowel just under the case I.D. and a mallet to drive the RB until it's resting on the powder charge.

    (The above wooden dowel procedure is OK for occasional loads, but for larger batches, it's easier in the long run to have a much deeper seating plug made that screws into a normal .45-70 seating die.)

    * Run the case mouth into a crimping die for E-Z-Peazy chambering (crimping the empty case mouth will do no harm)

    Some BP lube (Crisco cooking lard from the grocery store is OK) applied atop the seated RB will help keep bore fouling to a minimum.

    The easiest way to apply the lube is to spread the lube on a flat surface, press the mouth of the loaded case into the lube like it was a cookie cutter, than push the lube down onto the ball with the aforesaid wood dowel.

    If the loads are going to be carried around for awhile, or used in hot weather, an additional thin cardboard wad atop the lube will keep everything sealed shut.

    For cleanup, simply wash the empty case & the rifle's chamber * bore out with some hot water (very hot water, to heat the metal, will speed drying)




    .
    Last edited by pietro; 06-26-2019 at 10:54 AM.
    Experience is a wonderful thing - It lets you recognize a mistake, when you make it again.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    May 2016
    Location
    Denmark (a greasy little spot in Scandinavia)
    Posts
    654
    H4895 is way to slow for a reduced load!
    Unique: 10-12 grains would be fine (1040-1140fps)

  5. #5
    Boolit Master Shawlerbrook's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2015
    Location
    Central NY
    Posts
    819
    Just scroll down in the cartridge section to 4570 Trapdoor and put in your bullet weight.


    http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle

  6. #6
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by Shawlerbrook View Post
    Just scroll down in the cartridge section to 4570 Trapdoor and put in your bullet weight.


    http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/rifle
    Thanks all for your replies.

    I use the Hodgdon site all the time and have looked over the trapdoor loads a great deal. I just got a little spooked when Hodgdon emailed and stated, black powder only. I thought, gees, that is Hodgdon telling me this.

    Pete

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Emory,TX
    Posts
    790
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-and-Equipment
    Everything you need in this thread thanks to Larry.

  8. #8
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    16
    Quote Originally Posted by LIMPINGJ View Post
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...-and-Equipment
    Everything you need in this thread thanks to Larry.
    Gees, that quite a post. Thanks Limpingj and Larry Gibson.

    Pete

  9. #9
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    East Tn
    Posts
    3,593
    Quote Originally Posted by bpetersen View Post
    Thanks all for your replies.

    I use the Hodgdon site all the time and have looked over the trapdoor loads a great deal. I just got a little spooked when Hodgdon emailed and stated, black powder only. I thought, gees, that is Hodgdon telling me this.

    Pete
    No mystery at all, it's called CYA and is due to greedy lawyers! It's the same reason extremely strong rifles like modern HighWalls and others mark the barrels with "Black Powder ONLY when chambered in obsolete non-SAAMI older BP cartridges. I know they have listed loads for Trapdoors in general (along with the usual disclaimers and admonishments to make certain the rifle is sound) but it gets even stickier if a particular firearm is the subject instead of a whole class of firearms. If they said "sure go ahead and use our smokeless, everything will be fine" and a blow-up happens due to unforeseen weaknesses in the rifle or bad loading procedure they could be opening themselves to even more liability than the generalized loading data. Down loading H4895 is not a bad idea at all for these rifles but other powders might work even better, 5744 maybe?

    I would be leery of TrailBoss, while that powder is often used for low velocity plinking loads (indeed that's what it's meant for) it produces the desired low velocity at some surprisingly high pressures.
    Last edited by oldred; 06-27-2019 at 10:42 AM.
    Statistics show that criminals commit fewer crimes after they have been shot

  10. #10
    Can't go wrong with starting with 10-11 grains of Unique. Almost any weight bullet(400 grains or less). I n my opinion lighter is better than the 500 or so bullets. The rifle bore size is critical for accuracy with softer bullets working to fill it out. Trail Boss is also popular but I have not used it in rifle calibers but several pistol rounds. Probably can find info for Trail Boss from several sites.

  11. #11
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Posts
    29
    OldRed hit it on the head with the CYA, there are a great deal of variables in the safe to shoot equation. I have used Trailboss for my light loads and was happy with it, a puff and out the barrel. Like a giant pop-gun. Unique is also a great starting point to see what the rifle is going to like. While I haven't had much luck with it as most would have, 5744 is supposed to be an excellent powder to load your 45-70 with. Any way you look at it Pete, please give the rifle a thorough going over and ascertain that it is shootable.

  12. #12
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    16
    Thanks everyone for your replies. Rifle was taken to a gunsmith but I am not sure he really knew that much about trapdoor. He spend about 5 minutes with it and said, good to go. I will find out.

    Pete

  13. #13
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Mar 2015
    Location
    No matter where you go, there you are.
    Posts
    254
    I use 22 gr of 4895 with a 1-2 gr wad of Dacron and 405 gr flat base cast boolit in my TD Carbine. Shoots good and is real close to the original 55 gr BP carbine load. Burns clean too.

  14. #14
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    16
    tbx-4
    Is that H-4895 or IMR-4895?

    Also, thanks for the post.

    pete

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    brisbane ,qld,australia
    Posts
    841
    never use wads....you will ring the chamber sooner or later..........this from someone who thought 50 years experience made him immune to such newbie troubles........IMHO,I would use TB,velocity is low for the pressure,but the stuff has other advantages ......it slugs up undersize bullets..............otherwise ,Unique is good too.....but you must be aware of the danger of double charging a big case.Dont get distracted while loading.

  16. #16
    Boolit Mold
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    16
    "but you must be aware of the danger of double charging a big case.Dont get distracted while loading."

    Yep, heard that one... Could see the risk.

    So, no wadding.... Will you get a delayed firing at times?

  17. #17
    Boolit Master

    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    East Tn
    Posts
    3,593
    Quote Originally Posted by bpetersen View Post
    "but you must be aware of the danger of double charging a big case.Dont get distracted while loading."

    Yep, heard that one... Could see the risk.

    So, no wadding.... Will you get a delayed firing at times?
    That would depend a lot on the powder used and if it happens with a particular powder then that powder could simply be a bad choice. Something like 5744 without filler should never cause something like that as it is supposed to be insensitive to position and is designed to function normally with a lot of air space in a case such as 45/70.
    Statistics show that criminals commit fewer crimes after they have been shot

  18. #18
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Lake Havasu City, Arizona
    Posts
    17,180
    "Something like 5744 without filler should never cause something like that as it is supposed to be insensitive to position and is designed to function normally with a lot of air space in a case such as 45/70. "

    That's what the advertising hype says but it ain't so, especially with 45-70 carbine level loads.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Location
    brisbane ,qld,australia
    Posts
    841
    CYA is because once upon a time people had common sense,and accepted that if they got hurt doing something stupid ,it was their fault and non one else was to blame....Lawyers changed all that.

  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Posts
    301
    I use 27 grains of H4198 under the Lee 405 HB powder coated bullet and it is an accurate load. According to Hodgdon H4198 starting load of 27 grains is 14,200 CUP compared to Trailboss starting load of 12 grains at 24,500 CUP.
    However 60 to 65 grains of Goex FF is more accurate with the same bullet lubed.
    Learning how to load with black powder is pretty easy. If I can do it anyone can.
    Last edited by Carrier; 06-28-2019 at 01:05 AM.

Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check