Interesting thread. Would love to see photos of your log cabin you're working on - maybe you could post a thread and some photos of it in the "Our Town" section?
|
   
   
|
|
Interesting thread. Would love to see photos of your log cabin you're working on - maybe you could post a thread and some photos of it in the "Our Town" section?
Oh man. Its really nothing big. I said "cabin" but people usually associate that with something super pretty and massive :/ Not the case. I really like the Hunter/ trapper style. One day I wish to relaod ammo on a bench in thereOriginally Posted by bedbugbilly
Its 10x10. So Probably the size of your shed.
Keep in mind that there is a week or two between weekends that I go work on it. It would go fast if I would be there everyday. Its on the land my familly cottage is on. I did it at the back bordering another property. Its on 70 acres of land.
Planning:
Day 1:
Day 2 :
Nice work,Kev.
About cast boolit penetration: My friend got a 20 gauge 870 last winter. He sort of thinks it's a mouse gun. He is an experienced hunter and competiton shooter.
I gave him some of my round ball "Economy slugs" to try, a single hard 575 ball in a cup 1350 fps or so.
Now he won't stop talking about the penetration he got in old,dry pine logs. No more mouse gun, he was completely surprised - and the recoil is mild,too. "These would go through a moose!"
Cast boolits efficiency is not easy to explain,I prefer to demonstrate.
Angle a bullet strikes a steel plate has profound impact on the results. Take a 30 caliber steel core bullet shoot it a 3/8” A500 steel plate that is perfectly perpendicular to the bullet path it will zip right through it. Take that same caliber and bullet angle the plate down ward at a 45 degree angle to the bullets path and it will deflect the bullet downward with very little damage to the plate if any at all.
Yeah I heard of that. The force of impact is directed downwards so the bullet itself deflects off of whatever it hits.
Not sure if I missed it further up the thread but the old pine board penetration set up used boards of specific size and thickness (1/2" IIRC), and spaced in a rack (like a dish rack) with a gap between boards. At least that is what I have read and if memory serves that was in my old Cartridges of the World... but I'd have to check.
I doubt this was considered as substitute for hunting (flesh impact) but simply a repeatable and cheap way to compare different cartridges and bullets ~ comparative penetration. My take is that the gaps allowed chips to escape instead of building up in front of the boolit and deflecting it or causing inconsistent drag. kinda clean punch through on each board.
Hah! Taking a look on the internet I fond nothing but anecdotal comments about this time of testing but no details. I'll check my Cartridges of the World.
Its always fun testing cast boolits for expansion and/or penetration! Solid. HP, soft alloy, hard alloy, deep HP, shallow HP... all fun.
Longbow
yes the pine boards were all the same. I have an old page of a french advertisement that I found online about the 40-82 and they say how many boards it goes through.
I just took a look in my old Cartridges of the World and actually not a lot of info. In the BP cartridge section there is a page "Velocity, Enegery, Penetration And Trajectory Of Winchester Bullets and Recoil Of Rifles".
There is a table showing common rifles, calibers,barrel length, bullet weight, velocity, energy, penetration through 7/8" pine boards at 15', trajectory and recoil.
An example for the .45-70 U.S.G. with 500 gr. lead bullet penetrated 18 boards, the soft point bullet penetrated 15 boards and the full patch bullet penetrated 20 boards.
The .38-55 with 255 gr. bullet penetrated 10 beards with soft point and 23 boards with full patch bullet.
I am sure I have seen a picture of one of these test setups with the boards all lined up and held solidly but it may have been some specific company. In this case it was old Winchester info but my memory told me it was old military info... wrong!
Search as I might I am not finding any real info. The closest to what I recall reading about (and pics?) is:
https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-box...l-box-o-truth/
where he tests penetration through sheetrock all solidly held.
Just stacking up wood or shooting into blocks isn't going to be as consistent (I don't think) as shooting through racked up boards or something like sheetrock. Again, not a test for shooting into flesh/hunting but simply a repeatable inexpensive method of comparison between bullets, loads and calibers. Ballistic gelatin is nice but expensive to set up for many tests like if a guy wanted to test 3 or 4 different bullet designs in several calibers. Pine boards are cheap and easy.
Anyway, not a lot of help there. I guess the old memory is failing me.
Longbow
I believe it was 7/8" pine boards 1/2" apart held top and bottom in the rack.
Wayne the Shrink
There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!
For personal testing, Using the same boards and spacing in a rack should give consistent repeatable results. They may not conform with others testing. I think to over come the moisture variances in wood I would soak the test pieces for a day on edge covered in water. Again may not conform with others testing but for you it should be repeatable and constant. This was one of the reasons for water testing and the rise of 20% gelation at 68* temp repeatable test mediums. A simple rack with dados for the test boards to slide into gives exact spacing and holding force. then its cutting the test inserts to the same and grading the grain. A days soak and they should be very close from test to test.
I think its Glen Fyxell that uses a 2 liter pop bottle wrapped in duct tape end shot for flesh simulation for boolit expansion. Water is "hard" when boolits, or even bullets, hit so too much is not indicative of flesh and breaks boolits up... or at least HP boolits, but then that's different that penetration testing too.
I decided to make a rack that holds a bunch of Ziplock bags to try but that is mostly for expansion testing and boolit recovery. A line up of water filled Ziplock bags then a bucket filled with rags. Initial testing went pretty well but I've got to get it out again for some more testing and determining if it is telling me anything useful or if it is just fun. I do like recovering expanded boolits!
The penetration aspect may be useful too... "X" number of bags which should be consistent and not present too much water to cause boolit break up or excessive expansion. We'll see!
Longbow
It looks like the older slower cartridges go through alot more.
Most of the older/slower boolits are solid lead and heavy in comparison to modern high velocity boolits/bullets. A .45-70 shooting a 405 to 500 gr. boolit will have more mass and momentum compared to many smaller higher velocity bullets... less energy maybe but more momentum. That and the larger boolit tends not to deform as much or fragment as much as modern higher velocity bullets. More retained mass and less deformation = more penetration.
Longbow
Why do they make light fast bullets then?I can see that they are better for long range but if the bullet isnt hard enough to stay together and go in "deep" whats thepoint?
My current read, "The NRA Book of Small Arms, Volume I Pistols and Revolvers", dated 1946 by Walter H. B. Smith has listings for penetration at 15 feet of 7/8" soft pine boards. So I guess that was the popular means of testing penetration back around World War II and before. But they do not tell us what kind of "soft pine boards" they are. Or if they were kiln dried to 8% moisture content? We all know that recently cut soft pine is much less dense than the original trees they cut in this country and have a much lower allowable design strength for timber structures. I know some of the original pine boards in my house, built in 1905, is much stronger than the pine boards I get at the lumber yard now. I even put some sample pieces in the stress testing equipment at work and got more than 50% stronger of straight grained with no defects samples.
"Why do they make light fast bullets then?" Because:
- speed sells
- they provide flatter trajectory so easier to hit targets or animals at long range
- faster is better! They are more "modern". When smokeless powder became available in the late 1800's bore diameters shrunk, bullets got longer and skinnier (higher sectional density) and velocities got higher.Cartridges like .30-30 replaced cartridges like .40-40 for many uses.
- less smoke (that modern thing again)
- easier cleaning (if it got done anyway)... no BP fouling to clean up
It is hard to argue that cartridges like 7mm and 8mm Mauser, .30-06, .303 British and the like aren't effective cartridges and likely more useful for the average shooter and hunter than .45-70 loaded with BP. However, if faced with a large bear I'd rather have a .45-70 loaded with 400 to 500 gr. boolit even with BP or BP equivalent loads than any of those.
On the other hand the average shooter or hunter wants to be able to shoot Bambi at 500 yards and that's easier with the higher velocity cartridges. No, Elmer shouldn't be shooting at Bambi at 500 yards to begin with because Elmer likely can't hit a deer sized animal at 500 yards dependably... maybe, but not likely.
It is the Elmers that have driven factories to continually develop more and more over bored cartridges to get every foot per second of velocity they can. Speed sells.
Take a read about the .22 Savage High Power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.22_Savage_Hi-Power developed in 1912 and considered magical at the time for its high velocity and shocking power. Big problem is bullet design with such high velocity rounds. For a small diameter bullet to kill well it needs to expand and slow down. It is quite a trick to design a bullet to perform well at 50 yards and at 500 yards on the same game... say deer. If the bullet is designed to stay together at 50 yards then it is likely too stout to expand properly at 500 yards. If it is designed to expand properly at 300 yards then it will likely explode like a varmint bullet at 50 to 100 yards. All dependent on terminal velocity of course but high velocity at the muzzle with a small bullet with high B.C.
To put it in perspective with common cartridges, look at say .308 Winchester shooting a 150 gr. bullet loaded for deer hunting at "normal" ranges of say 100 to 200 yards then put that same bullet in a .300 Winchester and shoot the deer at 100 yards. Do you think the bullet will react the same at impact? Not likely. That bullet will likely expand radically more if not break up. I am assuming typical factory velocities and copper jacketed bullets for both cartridges here.
Alternately put a 200 gr. bullet in the .308 cartridge and shoot an animal at 500 yards. The bullet is not likely to expand much if at all so punches a small hole through the animal.
For shooting paper the lighter faster, flatter shooting bullet is certainly an easier method to get the job done.
For hunting it gets more complicated because terminal ballistics matter... a lot.
Since the average game animal is shot at about 125 yards it seems odd that many hunters buy guns chambered in large magnum cartridges since they are simply not needed at "normal" hunting ranges and few of these hunters are capable of hitting a deer size target past 300 yards much less hitting the vitals. But... speed sells.
Big bore bullets like .45-70 don't really need to expand at all and while slow/low velocity in comparison to the modern high velocity rounds, they are generally loaded with heavy bullets that penetrate well.
Is .22 Savage High Power a better deer cartridge than .45-70? I sincerely doubt it but speed sells and that high kinetic energy sells as well. When someone can say that their .22 Savage High Power produces 3,100 ft/s 1,493 ft⋅lbf with a 70 gr bullet compared to .45-70 at 1,394 ft/s 1,748 ft⋅lbf with 405 lead FN it has to be a better deer cartridge... right? Speed sells.
On the other hand, if you want to varmint shoot at 300 to 400 yards, .45-70 is not a good choice.
My 0.02$ worth (okay, lots of words so 0.04$ worth).
Longbow
Believe the velocity has to be at least 2200 ft per second to get the shock way effect from it, if memory serves me right. Believe that is what the FBI testing determined. One of the old Army test was 58 or 68 ft lbs was considered a lethal force.
I might try my luck this year bear and deer hunting. With my 1886 that is... For the first time in decades il be allowed females and bucks. Usually always bucks.
Posting Permissions
| BP | Bronze Point | IMR | Improved Military Rifle | PTD | Pointed |
| BR | Bench Rest | M | Magnum | RN | Round Nose |
| BT | Boat Tail | PL | Power-Lokt | SP | Soft Point |
| C | Compressed Charge | PR | Primer | SPCL | Soft Point "Core-Lokt" |
| HP | Hollow Point | PSPCL | Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" | C.O.L. | Cartridge Overall Length |
| PSP | Pointed Soft Point | Spz | Spitzer Point | SBT | Spitzer Boat Tail |
| LRN | Lead Round Nose | LWC | Lead Wad Cutter | LSWC | Lead Semi Wad Cutter |
| GC | Gas Check |
Reply With Quote
