Llubes - TL vs conventional vs PC in pistol caliber rifles

[bedbugbilly]

I'm posting this here thinking I might get more experiences and input . . .

I have cast for 55 years - a "dipper" and low tech - plain lead for RB and range lead for my conicals for pistol, etc. I have always tumble lubed in paste wax / alox - pretty low tech.

I'm downsizing due to age and circumstances and have sold some guns off I not longer use and am just going to stick with a few calibers. My goal is to have 38/357 and 45 L in both handgun and lever gun - thinking of a '66 Winchester in 38 special to go with my Uberti '51 R & M conversion, a 357 lever gun ( just bought a Henry BB steel 20") to go with y Uberti 247 Bisley and a 45 LC lever gun to go with my Uberti 7 1/2" Cattleman.

So I'll concentrate on the 357 but I'm sure it will apply to all of those.

I've never had a problem in "leading" with any of my reloads/guns - .380, 9mm, 38/357, 45 LC or my rifles in 30-30 and 8mm. I do not load "max" and don't push 'em hard - mainly plinking rounds these days.

So - for my 357s, I'm on a group buy for a NOE 358-158 RNFP mold but don't know when they'll be run so I ordered a Lee 2 cavity 358-125 RF and a 2 cavity 358-158 RF. While the Henry is classified as a 38/357, I'm only going to be using 357 brass and start by loading at 38 special loads - just plinking and paper punching - not pushing them hard and hopefully coming up with a load that will work well in both the Bisley and the Henry.

Yesterday, I cast about 300 of the 158 gr RF and maybe 50 of the 125 RG. Loaded some dummy rounds in the 357 cases and they fed and cycled like butter in the Henry.

So here's the catch. I'm older, I'm not enjoying castigates as much as I'm a "dipper" and stand to cast - resulting in a sore back, etc. As I'm doing all of the prep - casting, TL ing, etc. - I'm thinking that for what I am going to be shooting, maybe my time is better spent purchasing ready made boolits of the same design. I've given some thought to buying a lubesizer but really question if I'm going to use it enough to have it pay for itself.


So . . . . I know the velocity out of the 20" Henry barrel will be higher than out of the Bisley. In the past, I tried some PC's boolits from vendors here for 9mm and 380 - I did so with an "open mind" even though I'm a "old codger" - results? I was impressed with the PC'd boolits and even though I have an ample supply of them cast up for the 9 and the 380, when they get low, I think I am out going to order some PC'd boolits again and be done with it.

So this is not a start of a dispute on which is better as far as TL, conventional lube or PC'd.

My questions are in relation to the PC'd first. I had no leading or issues in the 9 and 380. Will the longer 20" barrel, with increased velocity be any different - i.e. as compared to a conventional lubed boolit (groove filled) will the increased velocity on a plain based PC'd boolit not shot to max have any advantage or disadvantage? If that makes any sense? I would imagine that I will hopefully keep the velocity down to 1100 FPS or so out of the rifle but that's a guesstimate on my part.

I don't have the time nor the room to do PCing so have no interest in getting started, but would buy PC if they will work equal/better than conventional lubed boolit.

Another question . . . and this is not "anti PC" in any way . . . but being what I would consider "new" as compared to several centuries of conventional lubed boolits . . . has anyone ever done a study of "wear"on a bore of PC versus conventional lubed boolits? I'm guessing there is no difference as I know many have shot 1,000s of PC'd boolits through their handguns and I've never seen a thread (if any exist) on bore wear.

If any of you shoot rifle in pistol calibers - 38, 357, 45, etc. - what have your experiences been between TL, conventional lubed and PC'd boolits? If both seem to shoot the same, I will probably order a K of the PC'd 158 gr. RNFP to try, if for no other reason than I don't have to worry about the conventional lubed ones drying out when I am in AZ as I'll take some with e to reload out there as well.

An experiences between the two types of lubing out of pistol cartridge rifles would be appreciated.

Thanks.

[Conditor22]

I've pushed PC'd .358-158-RF hard in an IMI pump rifle with great results and no leading, haven't had any problems with PC'd 9MM in a carbine.

I personally hate the mess of lube and having to deal with storage and different temperatures.

PROPERLY cured PC works great

[psweigle]

I shoot the powder coated lee 158 in my ruger 77/357 in both 38 special and 357 magnum. I load them in 357 magnum with a magnum primer and 16.5 grains of h110. No leading and I can't see any signs of wear in the bore. I have to have close to 1000 run through it at this point.
Hope this is what you were looking for.

[Gohon]

Question...when you say PC, are you talking about actual Powder Coated bullets or the Hi-Tek coated bullets? There is a difference between the two in performance in rifles in my experience.

[bedbugbilly]

I'm talking about the powder coated. Conditor22 - my thoughts go along with yours as far as getting myself a lubesize and getting in to all that mess with different lubes and storage. I'min MI part of the year and southern AZ the other half - out in AZ a few years ago, I bought some pre lubed 355 grain RNFP for my 45 LC that were pre-lubed. I quickly learned that I needed to store them in the house as the garage where I reload and putz around gets way too hot.

I'm thinking the PC is the way to go and just be done with it.

Gohon - I should have been more specific - but since you mention the Hi-Tek - can you give a brief description and what you experienced with one over the other - the pros and cons in your experience? Thanks much!

Not overthinking but more curiosity - for those that have shot PC (powder coated) through rifle - if you've retrieved any of your shot boolits and can tell - after traveling down the barrel what does the PC look like on your shot boolit? i.e. in the grooves and the lands is it still present, worn off, ?

In my limited use of PC in my 9mm and 380, I have never shot where I could retrieve a spent boolit to see how it held up - which I would imagine would be very well in a short pistol barrel. Just curious how a longer rifle barrel affects the coating as it travels down the barrel. Am also wondering if you are pushing them hard in a hotter load, say the 357 Mag that could cause a problem on an unchecked plain lead base boolit - do you think the PC coating on the bottom of the boolit and the way it "wraps" up the boolit allows it to be pushed a litter harder than a plain base lead boolit rather than using a gas check? Just one of those thing s I'm curious about as the use of PC is interesting to me as far as how it acts/reacts to such things.

Thanks.

Jim

[Yooper003]

I am in the same boat. I am shooting 357 mag rifle & 44 mag rifle, also 45/70. I do some casting & now I powder coat most everything I cast. Now my lead supply is getting low & it is getting harder to come by, so,I am mainly buying hi-tek coated & am very satisfied with them.no sign of wear, no leading & they shoot great.

[GhostHawk]

First off, I'm a ladle guy myself, but I don't stand. Find a low enough table so you can sit comfortably and cast for at least half an hour. A good half hour session will get you plenty of cast to play with.

I can not speak to PC as I have not done any of it. I was on the cusp of going that direction when I ran into Ben's Red and Ben's Liquid Lube. Both work and work well. And IMO are faster, require less equipment than PC.

I take a pile of air cooled boolits, still warm from casting, add 15 - 30 drops of BLL, put cover on container, swirl for a couple. Take cap off, set in front of a fan. 10 min later add second coat same as the first, lightly. Swirl a little longer. Third coat when I'm done and they look uniform I spill them onto a carboard flat in front of the fan.

Another 5-10 minutes and they are cooled, cured, no longer sticky ready to load.

You take the road that works for you. For me it is BLL or BLL with 1% carnuba wax added for hard shell on the bullets and mirror bores in rifles. YMMV.

[fecmech]

TL will do just fine in the 1100-1200fps range. I've shot thousands of the Lee 158 TLSWC out of both my Rossi's and a Win94 I used to own. No leading and good accuracy. The Lee 125RF @ 1200-1300 fps is an accuracy champ! (4.5 Bullseye or 5.3/231)

[Rick Hodges]

I have no problems with leading using PC 235gr. gas checked bullets at 1700 fps in my 22" barreled 44 magnum. You may have different results. I cast them and PC with "smoke's" powder. I don't know how they would do with tumble lube, I never tried.

[BigAlofPa.]

When i run the Hi-tek coated though my Pistol caliber carbines. I do get leading on the muzzle brake mostly in the 9mm and 10mm. The 40sw and the 45 it's not as bad. But they are slower moving rounds. The bores stay lead free in them all. Just stay away from Tight group powder. It can burn the coating off and cause leading. I learned that the hard way.

[Gohon]

Jim I do things different than most. I do the shake and bake method and pick the casts out one at a time with a pair of needle nose tweezers and stand them up on their base on a pizza pan covered with parchment paper. Yes it is slower than the method what some others might do but I can coat and bake 300-400 casts while watching a movie. I also size before and after coating. I've settled on Eastmans powder as it coats well and is not affected by high humidity during the process like some other powders I've tried.

As for Hi-Tek, truth is my experience is very limited. I tried it once but the process was not only longer than powder coating...mix to products together, swirl it round in the product, let it evaporate, bake, and then do the process for a second time. The casts I Hi-Teked I was able to scrape off with my fingernail using hard pressure. Can't do that with powder coating but there is also the chance I didn't do it right even though I closely followed the instructions. Those I've talked to say the same as I have read and that is Hi-Tek shoots fine in their revolvers and pistols but accuracy a leading was a problem in rifles. On the other hand if bullet to groove is not right the same results will occur.

I use 1500-1600 fps as a cut off shooting bare base casts. Anything above that speed gets a gas check design. The highest speed in my 1894C (357 Magnum) that I've shot is 1906 FPS with a powder coated 158 grain gas checked cast. No leading and good accuracy...however I've done the same with the same bullet lubed with Lee Liquid Alox. The trick with any cast to prevent barrel leading, and I'm sure you already know this, is to ensure your cast is .002-.003 greater than groove diameter.

[Walks]

I've been shooting a Marlin 1894C for 40yrs. My hot load is the Lyman #358156 Cast of Linotype, gas checked with Hornady GC's. Sized .358 and Lubed with 50/50 Lube in a Lube-Sizer. Now I switched to White Label Lube BAC. Over a Max Charge of 2400.

My Cowboy/plinking load is a 158gr anything over 3.5gr of Bullseye. Commercial Cast, Moly-coated. My Cast Lyman #358665 of #2 Alloy Lubed 50/50. Recently some Lee #358-158-RF TL with WLL 45-45-10 or Powder Coated with Eastwood Squirrel Grey and sized in a Lee .358 Sizer Die.

Most all these loads work well in all my .357Mag Revolvers. My 44yr old NM Blackhawk will put 6 rd's of the 1st Load into a round one hole group at 25yrds, about an 1 1/4".

I have never had a leading problem with any because my bore is .357dia and the throat barely exists. I also polished the bore with 1,000rds of Hot J-B's before I pushed a cast bullet down it.