Confused About Measuring Black Powder

[Alstep]

Black powder loads are always described as measured by "volume", not weight. What is the volume of, say for example, 50 grains by weight of powder? Are all the "volume" powder measures calibrated to the the same standard? Why not set your measure by weight? What am I missing here?

[Mr Peabody]

My measure has little hash marks for reference. the 5 hash marks comes close to 50 grs with fffg, but with ffg it's about 45 grs. you'll have to check weigh a few drops to see how the measure you use drops. it matters too if you tap on your measure to settle the charge. most of what I see for volume charges are replica powders not black. black is listed by weight and granulation.

[TheOutlawKid]

I think due to the weight changing with humidity in the air etc...for instance you can weigh it one day in the hummid summer at 20 grains then again on a dry fall day and they will be different amounts when compared to eachother...although using the volume measurement it will always be the same or atleast very close. Atleast thats what i think. Although i have tested my spouts against one another weight and volume wise and they arent accurate...off by a couple grains or so on the scale and against other same size volume spouts. Although I have one adjustable volume spout that matches volume to weight.

[country gent]

A lot make their own measures. I believe most purchased measures are graduated to 2 f granulations and will be slightly different with different granulations or different brands even. A very nice measure can be made with a little hard wood some brass tubing and time. A piece of tubing with ID close to rifles bore dia. a piece of hard wood fitted to the tube snug, glued and small nails to hold it in place . finished to make a handle or lanyard holder. leave tube long when fitting the end in. I leave the full 1 foot length of hobby tubing. Pour the measured charge into tube and measure down to the powder with a loose fitting dowel and mark dowel. remove pour out powder and cut tube slightly longer than marked dowel. Now file end square and to where it throws the desired charge by volume.

You can get fancy with this adding rings of other metals woods or materials. Brads blued dark in a brass tube stand out a polished brass tube with backend nails and a walnut end finished up can really be nice. Remember to break all edges and polish up the surfaces for comfort your handling it alot

[flyingmonkey35]

well you hit the nail on the head with that one.

roughly speaking 40 grains off BP will fill up a 45 acp case to the brim.

keep in mind that at the time of black powder rifles. the shooter carved out their own powder measure. if the even used one.

so a 40 grain by volume was independent between each shooter and or powder measure manufacturers.

now we have fancy scales and precision instruments.

I would buy a sliding brass powder measure for 10 bucks. or a set of Lee dippers. and shoot till you find the load that fits your gun.

also a traditional black powder rifle are way different then the new inline ones.

only other advise I got is if you ate shooting a traditional be very careful with the pre packed pellet loads.




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[Tom W.]

I know an empty .444 case works well as a measure for my .45 T/C, and I ain't too worried about loosing it. It's right at the 70 gr by volume of Pistol pyrodex. Which probably doesn't help you a bit.......

[Tasbay]

With my home made powder being litter by volume ( not compressed) compared to bought powder I use 200 grains by thrown volume for a 100 grain by weight charge. Don`t think too much into it. Find the amount of powder the rifle likes and that's what goes down the pipe.

[rfd]

black powder - front stuffers measure by volume, cartridge loaders measure by weight. that's all there is to that.

as already mentioned, get a brass adjustable volume measure. use it to test out what load yer gun prefers. a good starting point to use the gun's bore for the volume weigh of black powder - i.e. 50 grains by volume for a .50 long gun - increment upwards by 5 grains and test for the best consistent accuracy.

[megasupermagnum]

I always assumed it had more to do with the introduction of Pyrodex than anything. A 50 grain by volume charge of real blackpowder should weigh 50 grains more or less. What grade you are using, humidity, and operator error can change that, but it should be close. Since all black powder substitutes are 1-1 with blackpowder by volume only, it is only safe to do everything that way.

The other thing is that volume measuring is more accurate than needed, blackpowder being so forgiving, and is so much more convenient.

[rfd]

I always assumed it had more to do with the introduction of Pyrodex than anything.

nope, it was always a volume measurement, from day one, more than a few centuries ago.

A 50 grain by volume charge of real blackpowder should weigh 50 grains more or less.

mostly no, though though weighing doesn't matter if volume charging a tube. volume/weight will also change with bp granule size.

What grade you are using, humidity, and operator error can change that, but it should be close. Since all black powder substitutes are 1-1 with blackpowder by volume only, it is only safe to do everything that way.

for the most part no - there is a sliding scale when comparing real bp against the phony smokeless stuff, and the charges are at least somewhat different on the low end and more significant as they increase.



The other thing is that volume measuring is more accurate than needed, blackpowder being so forgiving, and is so much more convenient.

100% correct for a front stuffer!

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[megasupermagnum]

We know that the substitutes have different velocities than blackpowder. There are differences in velocities with different black powder brands. It's the pressure that is supposed to be 1 to 1 by volume. Again, you are right that they are not, but safety wise, that was the idea.

I will say that the few times I dumped a volume of blackpowder on a scale, it was reasonably close. At least within a couple grains or so. Now that I think of it, I was probably using Lee powder scoops. Maybe a muzzleloader powder measure is completely wrong.

[arcticap]

Here's a weight to volume conversion chart.
An important thing to remember is that Swiss powder is approximately 11% denser than Goex.
That means that an equal volume of Swiss will weigh about 11% more than Goex.

https://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm

[indian joe]

Here's a weight to volume conversion chart.
An important thing to remember is that Swiss powder is approximately 11% denser than Goex.
That means that an equal volume of Swiss will weigh about 11% more than Goex.

https://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm

why do we keep doin this baloney argument ?? grains is a weight measure - end of story !

yeah make a volume measure that is the perfect load and THEN weigh what that measure holds and scratch it on the side for reference - now you got a volume measure that holds a certain grains weight of that particular powder ifn you fill it evenly and the same as before - use a different brand powder or some homemade stuff or tap the measure ten times instead of five and yre volumetric grains idea is down the toilet! (where it belongs)

[heelerau]

I have normally used volume as I use original flasks so in drams (27 1/2 grains) when I make up measures for my round ball rifles I use grains. Use what ever suits you, volume or grains/weight. If you shake a flask you can increase the weight by volume, to get consistency with a flask takes a little practise, but is quite easy. I just hold it and let the nozzle fill under it own weight, I get within a grain from charge to charge. When I fill a measure from the horn I just let it fill, I don't shake or tap it and it is also pretty consistent.

[LAGS]

@ heelerau.
You are Spot On as far as Consistency weather it be by Volume or Weight.
Find what your rifle or Pistol likes and stay Consistent.

[megasupermagnum]

Here's a weight to volume conversion chart.
An important thing to remember is that Swiss powder is approximately 11% denser than Goex.
That means that an equal volume of Swiss will weigh about 11% more than Goex.

https://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm

What I'm seeing is that Goex FFFg measured by volume, is pretty close by weight. That's the way it should be.

[Wayne Smith]

The confusion came with the introduction of Pyrodex and then the copycats. They are all less dense than real black. Thus if one were to measure them by weight one would have a significant overload if one used the Black Powder charge weights. Since most of us were using volume measures anyway (flasks, measured tubes, or homemade) it was easier to simply say only use volume measures with the fake powders.

[arcticap]

The confusion came with the introduction of Pyrodex and then the copycats. They are all less dense than real black. Thus if one were to measure them by weight one would have a significant overload if one used the Black Powder charge weights. Since most of us were using volume measures anyway (flasks, measured tubes, or homemade) it was easier to simply say only use volume measures with the fake powders.

I don't agree with that all.
Pyrodex did not cause the confusion.

Everyone knows how fluffy that some home made black powders can be which are much less dense than Goex.

Even black powder from other manufacturers can have different densities, just like Swiss does.
It's known that sporting powders can have a higher moisture content and not all manufacturing processes and ingredients for black powders are the exact same.
Those differences were well known way before Pyrodex was invented in 1977.

That's why the whole muzzle loading industry only uses volumetric grains unless weight is specified, so that there are established standards.

Cartridge case capacity is measured by using the grain weight of water because water has a standard density which coincidentally is almost the exact same as Goex.
And that's why the conversion chart is helpful.
But notice that it only specifies Goex 3F Black Powder and even Goex Express 2F was different.
Express was their cartridge black powder.
How could there ever be a conversion chart for homemade black powders when people do not usually ever weigh their powder charges in the field?

https://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm

And that's also why long ago they made a device to measure the relative strength of different black powders like the Palmetto Epruvette: --->>> http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ster-in-Action

Notice that the chamber holds an exact volume of powder and not weight, and that's how powder strength was measured long before Pyrodex was invented.

[indian joe]

I don't agree with that all.
Pyrodex did not cause the confusion.

Everyone knows how fluffy that some home made black powders can be which are much less dense than Goex.

Even black powder from other manufacturers can have different densities, just like Swiss does.
It's known that sporting powders can have a higher moisture content and not all manufacturing processes and ingredients for black powders are the exact same.
Those differences were well known way before Pyrodex was invented in 1977.

That's why the whole muzzle loading industry only uses volumetric grains unless weight is specified, so that there are established standards.

Cartridge case capacity is measured by using the grain weight of water because water has a standard density which coincidentally is almost the exact same as Goex.
And that's why the conversion chart is helpful.
But notice that it only specifies Goex 3F Black Powder and even Goex Express 2F was different.
Express was their cartridge black powder.
How could there ever be a conversion chart for homemade black powders when people do not usually ever weigh their powder charges in the field?

https://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm

And that's also why long ago they made a device to measure the relative strength of different black powders like the Palmetto Epruvette: --->>> http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ster-in-Action

Notice that the chamber holds an exact volume of powder and not weight, and that's how powder strength was measured long before Pyrodex was invented.

Mate ===there is no such thing as volumetric grains - that is a concocted term - grains is a measure of weight. Volume is a measure of space ------ten grains of sawdust is the same weight as ten grains of lead but they take up a different amount of space ..........................ahhhhhhhh what the heck

[rfd]

indian joe got it right - volume is a displacement value, grains are weight, the two don't mix though one could make very unique comparisons between very specific audited volume/grain data.