Confused About Measuring Black Powder

[megasupermagnum]

Ok, yesterday I never gave it a second thought. Today I'm lost just like Alstep.

Different powders have different densities and measured with a vague system of strength... and that's the reason we measure by volume? If 80 grains by volume of Goex has a different velocity and pressure than 80 grains by volume of Swiss, it would still be different if both were 80 grains by weight.

If our volume measures (labled in grains) don't correspond to grains at all, then we should go back to using drams, yeesh.

[rfd]

trad muzzleloaders have historically been volume measured for their charge. we all know why this had to be, right?

in essence, yes there IS a difference between swiss and goex, where swiss packs a bit more punch. this is why we test a new gun with a starter load (typically a volumetric powder charge about the the same as the gun's bore) and increment upwards in search for what the gun and load prefers.

OTOH, a cartridge such as .45-70 for a sharps or roller or browning, etc, can by charged with BP by either volume or weight. after awhile, you'd prolly realize why it's typically better to weigh for a rifle cartridge ... or use a good powder measure such as a harrells.

[indian joe]

Ok, yesterday I never gave it a second thought. Today I'm lost just like Alstep.

Different powders have different densities and measured with a vague system of strength... and that's the reason we measure by volume? If 80 grains by volume of Goex has a different velocity and pressure than 80 grains by volume of Swiss, it would still be different if both were 80 grains by weight.

If our volume measures (labled in grains) don't correspond to grains at all, then we should go back to using drams, yeesh.

This might seem just too simplistic but hang with me for a bit
If I am starting a new gun (muzzleloader) I will pick something (volume measure) thats in the ballpark ....

so a 45 ball gun - I fill a 44/40 shell up for a starter load - try it - thats someplace in the 40-45 grain range - needs a bit more? try a bit more - maybe a 303 brit case (50 odd grains) or use your adjustable measure (I dont like em but they work) -

so I work up a load that gives me best results with that powder - then I cut a volume measure to hold that load exactly - might make up a nice little horn tip measure - whatever - old boolit shells work you can cut one down a little or a lot -

so I make a measure that belongs to that gun with the powder I used - then I weigh what it contains -

now when you ring me up and ask what charge I used to win that match last saturday I will tell you 47 grains of goex FFFG (or whatever) and that is by weight -

you can duplicate that really close by using a scale and cutting a measure to suit or setting your adjustable one and marking it -

but if I tell you use the 40 grain mark on your adjustable measure - you might or might not get the same charge. Depends who made the measure depends on a lot of stuff .

I have nothing against volume measures - use em all the time - the problem comes with the transfer of information -- grains weight anyone can duplicate anywhere provided the same powder is used -

[rfd]

make it all easier with a trad muzzleloader and just use an adjustable volumetric powder measure. this makes it easy to work up a charge load the gun will prefer for a particular task, typically target or hunting. once a suitable charge is determined, either continue using the measure or, as most of us do, make up a fixed measure that'll throw the target volume of BP. again, there is NO need to weigh BP charges for trad muzzleloaders. a waste of time.

in a .45 trad muzzleloader example, i'd set the measure for 45 grains as a starter, take some benched shots at 25yds, increment the charge by 5 grains, and take notes for all charges. with my .54 flint rifle, i start with 55 grains. with my .62 smoothie flinter, it's 60 grains.

what's the max charge? what granule BP? ah, more issues of sorts and lotsa opinions from everyone who's been in the trad muzzleloader game for too long!

the max load clearly depends on the barrel. most modern guns come with a max powder charge rating and all will be proofed at 2-1/2 or 3 times that charge. i use swiss 3f for all trad muzzleloaders, for both tube and pan, no matter if .32 or .62 in caliber/bore.

as always, ymmv.

[Tracy]

I always assumed it had more to do with the introduction of Pyrodex than anything. A 50 grain by volume charge of real blackpowder should weigh 50 grains more or less. What grade you are using, humidity, and operator error can change that, but it should be close. Since all black powder substitutes are 1-1 with blackpowder by volume only, it is only safe to do everything that way.

The other thing is that volume measuring is more accurate than needed, blackpowder being so forgiving, and is so much more convenient.

This is correct. The only reason you see the "by volume" measurement tossed about is that the substitutes are engineered to work with the measures BP shooters are already using. In engineering these substitutes, powder companies had a choice between making them weigh the same or occupy the same volume as an equivalent (pressure) load of black powder. Since no one weighs their charges in the field, the choice was obvious. Three attributes of a given load: pressure, weight, volume. Since it is not black powder, it is almost impossible to make all three the same. So the powder companies choose the two most relevant.

The confusion comes when people who have no clue what they are talking about, try to make up a convoluted argument to support their case. Then that load of hogwash gets repeated by other people who likewise don't know what they are talking about.

Not trying to step on anyone's toes here. I haven't even read the comments (yet) beyond the quoted post, therefore this can't be directed at a post I haven't even read yet. But I have read some of the hogwash on other forums, so I expect it will be forthcoming here too.

The production techniques of sporting grade black powder have been standardized for a long time now, with the result that there is not a large enough variation in charge weight vs. volume to worry about. That is not true of any of the substitutes, and that is the only reason we hear about weight vs. volume measurements. With real black it doesn't matter how you weigh it. 50 grains is 50 grains. Weighing is more precise, but not enough to matter.

Grains is a measurement of weight (actually mass), period. It has nothing to do with the volume of water, as I have seen postulated on some other forums (don't know if anyone has dragged that one up here). There is not, nor has there ever been a volume measurement called grains.

It's the same thing as when nitro shotshells hit the market. You see "drams equivalent" on modern shotshells; that is a direct reference to an equivalent black powder load. When you see for example "3-1/4 dram equivalent" on a box of 12 gauge shotshells, that means it has the same power as a load using 3-1/4 drams, or just under 90 grains, of black powder. The same load using Unique might be 25 grains. That's the whole reason for "equivalent:" if you load 90 grains of Unique in a 12 gauge shotshell, you will blow it up.

Bottom line: with real black powder, grains is grains. You can buy a measure and it will be close enough, if the manufacturer's tolerances are within reason. Or, you can weigh out the desired charge and use that to make your own measure. Once you have a measure (either bought or made), you can use that to measure the BP subs. They will work, but they won't weigh the same as BP because they're not designed to.

[arcticap]

Here's a chart of rifle case capacities which is a measurement of the grain weight of the volume of water that each case will hold.--->>> http://kwk.us/cases.html

Notice that the .44-40 WCF cartridge case located near the bottom of the list [on the right] has a capacity of 40 grains of water.
That was originally a black powder cartridge designed to hold 40 grains of black powder.

"...the name .44-40 (shorthand for .44 caliber and the standard load at the time of 40 grains (2.6 g) of black powder)..." --->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44-40_Winchester

Is it a coincidence that the volume of 40 grains of water just about exactly equals the volume of 40 grains of black powder?
That's what has become known as volumetric grains, the weight of a known volume whether it's water or black powder.
At least water has a known standard weight which black powder doesn't.

It's well known that a pound equals 7000 grains.
There's no dispute that a grain is a measurement of weight.
But since every batch of a black powder is different, it's easier and more precise to manufacture a volumetric powder measure based on the grain weight of a volume of water than it is to use black powder which doesn't have a standard weight.
I'm simply trying to show how a volumetric grain has become a known standard that can very well be based on the grain weight of a volume of water.
A person doesn't need to go out and buy some Goex or buy a scale in order to make a volumetric black powder measure.
If a person uses the conversion chart, they can also use Lee CC powder scoops or use empty brass cartridge cases that they know the case capacities of in grains of water.

[pietro]

black powder - front stuffers measure by volume, cartridge loaders measure by weight. that's all there is to that.

Or...…… black powder = volume; smokeless powder = weight.

The real difference is that black powder burns differently than smokeless powder .







That difference can also be expressed as explosive power






The more powerful smokeless powder is also more sensitive to changes in charge size than black powder.

Ergo, BP has a "fudge factor" that allows safe loading by volume - which is also quicker than weighing charges.


.

[indian joe]

Or...…… black powder = volume; smokeless powder = weight.

The real difference is that black powder burns differently than smokeless powder .







That difference can also be expressed as explosive power






The more powerful smokeless powder is also more sensitive to changes in charge size than black powder.

Ergo, BP has a "fudge factor" that allows safe loading by volume - which is also quicker than weighing charges.


.

for the sake of argument how does yr rotary powder measure work? most smokeless ammo is also loaded by volume - AFTER - the measure is calibrated by weight.

I am told that Swiss is noticeably more denser than other powders (Goex etc) so if you load it in a same size volume measure it is noticeably more hotter/quicker/more velocity - but your one pound can will also run empty quicker too if you continue to load by volume.

Homemade is often much less dense than commercial but most burns about equal if you load by weight - I get 79 grains of Goex in a 45/70 shell and only 55 grains of screened HM, but in my 45 cal flinter 55 grains of either gives me as close to identical loading as I can get. I still load both with a volume measure calibrated for each powder - but if I tell you yeah 55 grains and then I hand you my HM measure you are gonna get a big surprise if you use it to meter Swiss into your 45 flinter.

[Tracy]

Here's a chart of rifle case capacities which is a measurement of the grain weight of the volume of water that each case will hold.--->>> http://kwk.us/cases.html

Notice that the .44-40 WCF cartridge case located near the bottom of the list [on the right] has a capacity of 40 grains of water.
That was originally a black powder cartridge designed to hold 40 grains of black powder.

"...the name .44-40 (shorthand for .44 caliber and the standard load at the time of 40 grains (2.6 g) of black powder)..." --->>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.44-40_Winchester

Is it a coincidence that the volume of 40 grains of water just about exactly equals the volume of 40 grains of black powder?
That's what has become known as volumetric grains, the weight of a known volume whether it's water or black powder.
At least water has a known standard weight which black powder doesn't.

It's well known that a pound equals 7000 grains.
There's no dispute that a grain is a measurement of weight.
But since every batch of a black powder is different, it's easier and more precise to manufacture a volumetric powder measure based on the grain weight of a volume of water than it is to use black powder which doesn't have a standard weight.
I'm simply trying to show how a volumetric grain has become a known standard that can very well be based on the grain weight of a volume of water.
A person doesn't need to go out and buy some Goex or buy a scale in order to make a volumetric black powder measure.
If a person uses the conversion chart, they can also use Lee CC powder scoops or use empty brass cartridge cases that they know the case capacities of in grains of water.

They are also weighing the amount of water that a modern, fired solid-head .44-40 case will hold to the case mouth. That has very little to do with how much black powder an unfired original balloon-head case would fit under the bullet. So yes, the fact that the fired modern case held 40 grains of water when filled to the mouth is indeed a blind coincidence.
And so is the fact that the weight of pressed, corned black powder is not much different than the weight of the same volume of water. It's also not much different than the weight of an equal volume of dry corn grits. So maybe the International Ministry of Powder Measures really weighed some grits when they wanted to come up with a way to measure black powder. After all, why use the actual substance you want to measure?

I do agree with you about the Lee scoops, btw. I use those for all kinds of powders, including both store bought and home made black.

[megasupermagnum]

Now I'm curious, I'm going to measure the weight of various powders in whatever black powder measures I have. Unfortunately the only Swiss I have is F, so not apples to apples, but I also have FF Goex, as well as both FF and FFF Olde Eynsford. I already know each powder will weigh a little more or less, but if my powder measures are way off, that would be a good thing to know. I don't always use the same one depending on what kit I grab.

[arcticap]

Herb on the MLF posted this photo of some of his homemade powder measures.
Note how each is marked for a different powder.

[pietro]

for the sake of argument how does yr rotary powder measure work? most smokeless ammo is also loaded by volume - AFTER - the measure is calibrated by weight.

Smokeless powder is never loaded by volume, only by weight.

A rotary powder measure doesn't actually measure the powder charge, it's merely a device that delivers consistent consecutive amounts of a select weight of powder, after it's calibrated with a scale.

Anyone who simply sets a rotary powder measure to a setting w/o first verifying the setting via weighing the initial setting/charge is simply asking for trouble.


.

[megasupermagnum]

A powder measure is a volume measure, even if it was first calibrated by dropping on a scale. Lee powder scoops should be checked with a scale, but thousands if not millions of smokeless rounds have been loaded with only a powder scoop. Even at the top level, bench rest shoots will often state their load based on their powder measure setting, not a weight.

[indian joe]

Smokeless powder is never loaded by volume, only by weight.

A rotary powder measure doesn't actually measure the powder charge, it's merely a device that delivers consistent consecutive amounts of a select weight of powder, after it's calibrated with a scale.

Anyone who simply sets a rotary powder measure to a setting w/o first verifying the setting via weighing the initial setting/charge is simply asking for trouble.


.

scuse me !! ya clipped me post - ya musta read it - did it sink in?

[Fly]

Weight vs Volume? First I,m a simple guy with simple opinions. Lets look at this like it is. When loading smokeless powder most
go buy weight. But some do not, some use a dipper. Tournament shooter most always measure by weight with smokeless. Reason
it is more accurate, plan & simple. Black powder is really no different when push comes to shove. But how much different does it
make with BP? not much. Back in the day those guys were not going to carry scales with them. Now we that make our own black
powder YES weigh it. It can differ from batch to batch. But buying over the counter I can't see much difference. I think drop tubes
are more important with black powder than weighing. Bob or (Boaz) on the form has shot long range Comps & can add much more
than me. Maybe he will read this post & give his advice.

Fly

[Fly]

Weight vs Volume? First I,m a simple guy with simple opinions. Lets look at this like it is. When loading smokeless powder most
go buy weight. But some do not, some use a dipper. Tournament shooter most always measure by weight with smokeless. Reason
it is more accrete, plan & simple. Black powder is really know different when push comes to shove. But how much different does it
make with BP? not much. Back in the day those guys were not going to carry scales with them. Now we that make our own black
powder YES weigh it. It can differ from batch to batch. But buying over the counter I can't see much difference. I think drop tubes
are more important with black powder than weighing. Bob or (Boaz) on the form has shot long range Comps & can add much more
than me. Maybe he will read this post & give his advice.

Fly SORRY FOR DOUBLE POST, MODORATOR can delict if choses so

[ResearchPress]

I always assumed it had more to do with the introduction of Pyrodex than anything.
nope, it was always a volume measurement, from day one, more than a few centuries ago.
..... ... .

Long range riflemen in the 19thC used weighed charges with their muzzle loaders, and it is still common practice today amongst those who enjoy long range muzzle loading. In 1864 Horatio Ross, the Captain of the Scottish Eight for the Elcho Shield (shooting at 800, 900 & 1000 yds) wrote: “Weigh every charge of powder carefully before going to the rifle range; for, unless you attend to this, your shooting will be irregular.”

Range cases were available to carry glass phials for the pre-weighed charges.

David

[rfd]

there are exceptions and oddities to most things in life, but for the very most part, front stuffers were volume powder loaded here in the states until well into the 19th century. this had little to nothing to do with target shooting accuracy, it was just the convenient and most practical thing to do for sustenance, protection, and even warfare.

[indian joe]

there are exceptions and oddities to most things in life, but for the very most part, front stuffers were volume powder loaded here in the states until well into the 19th century. this had little to nothing to do with target shooting accuracy, it was just the convenient and most practical thing to do for sustenance, protection, and even warfare.

Either way of measuring powder works fine for most purposes - its the transfer of information that can be a (potential) problem - if a bloke tells me his pet load is 40grains by the measure, then I dont really know what is what - which measure? who calibrated it ? could easily be 45 grains or 37 grains or ...... but if he says just get a 44/40 case full then we are within a grain or two (depending on how we fill the case / measure)

[Fly]

Yep all has been covered on this. I think if you are a average to good shooter it most likely won't make squat weight vs volume. But if you are
a crack shooter weigh your loads.
JMOHOP Fly