Help , Need help on 9MM loading

[mauser1959]

First of all , let me say , I have been reloading revolvers for a few years. But recently I switched to loading for my 9MMs. I have a real problem in my loading it seems. It is like I am just relearning to reload all over again. My problem is that on my Taurus PT911 the cartridges do not seem to seat all the way and I have to manually push the slide forward with my thumb (with some loads after the first bullet has been fired from the magazine). However on both of my Hewlan pistols the rounds will chamber and shoot ... sorry to say , when I built up the rounds I used the Hewlan as my test gun. I am shooting a 125gr. Lee LRN (356-125-2r), with the OAL of .986" ; I have actually sized the bullets to .355 to see if that helps , but no luck. Hopefully someone can give me some pointers as to what I am doing wrong as this is driving me nuts. I could never have imagined that reloading a pistol would be so much different than reloading a revolver. I have ordered a new Lee Truncated mold to see if I can reload that with better luck... and if nothing else surely the bullets will look like something more than just little stubbies.



And to make matters worse , because I used my Hewlans to check the rounds I built up a thousand rounds... but I have shot a number of them as target rounds so far. So, if you have any ideas on what I am doing wrong , feel free to chime in , and even laugh if you must ; at this time I can take a good amount of ribbing , I have sworn enough to last a life time. On the Taurus , because of how I am able to seat the bullet with just a gentle push it seem

[Lloyd Smale]

try a lee factory crimp die. With a 9mm you have to be very careful to insure the bullets start into the case straight too. I dont know what it is about the 9 but it sure seems to be easy to get bullets in crooked. Two more things you might want to try are seating a tad deaper and even trying a different bullet if the factory crimp die doesnt cure it.

[fecmech]

I think the seating depth may be your problem. You may be engaging the rifling with the ogive of the bullet, I'd try seating a little deeper as Loyd mentioned.

[mauser1959]

I will try seating a bit deeper, but the bullets already look almost like they are toys with the short OAL. I wonder where the OAL will finally end up, but as long as they shoot ok , then I will be satisfied. I never figured that reloading an automatic pistol could be so damn finicky. By the way , thanks for all the input that I am getting , it helps a novice like me a bunch.

[9.3X62AL]

Hmmmmm........you might have those boolits seated a little TOO DEEPLY, and their bases might be pooching out the casing sidewalls. I load the Lee 125 RN to a cartridge OAL of 1.140", and it ran well in all of my 9s. Yes, the 9mm Parabellum will prompt strong language at times.

The Lee 122 TC boolit shoots better in my pistols anyway. Seat it such that about .020" of the front drive band extends out of the case--set a gentle taper crimp or VERY SLIGHT roll crimp to just straighten out the flare from seating, and you should be good to go. OAL should be about 1.135" or so.

As an aside--if those 125 RNs (or any other bullets/boolits) are seated too deeply, the potential exists for a pressure excursion due to insufficient powder space caused by the too-deep seating.

One way to minimize cocked boolits is to run the cartridge assembly up into the seating die until the "loose" boolit just contacts the seater stem--this causes most boolit designs to align themselves with fair straightness. Then proceed to seat the boolit completely. This will likely play hob with a progressive system's sequential timing--be careful.

9mm and 40 S&W should be treated like rifles when it comes to cast boolits. Chances are you'll get better accuracy with boolits sized .357" or a bit fatter. Slug the barrel's throat and grooves to see what you're dealing with--MANY 9mm bores run wider than nominal .355".

[shotman]

by your post that they "look like toys" i aggree with 9.3 may be too deep i use the mag as a guide in an auto If it will feed out of mag it will chamber [this is the length]

[billyb]

I also agree with 9.3. I have cast several thousand 09-124-cn sized 356 and shot them in a639 smith, a berrita 92 and my glock 17 with no problems. Make your oal a little longer, i use a taper crimp die as the final stage in my dillon 650. Don'tlike the lee fc dies. Bill

[Four Fingers of Death]

I picked up a trick for the 9mm from Dean Grendell (I think it was him). He said to sort brass by length and see what worked best, trim all to that length and sell off the shorter stuff. I only did this one and it tightened up the groups big time. Of course, that gun liked the longest stuff, so I had to get rid of most of the brass. I must try it with my 92FS, project number 369.

[Blammer]

check for too much lube build up inside the chamber, may look at possibly seating the bullet a tad deeper, I'd look at your recoil spring and the charge of the ammo

I'd suspect that the loads are "weak" and not pushing the slide back far enough to give it a running go for seating the next round. Couple that with a tad too long boolit, and some extra lube and you have your problem.

just a guess.

[mauser1959]

Thanks all , this is good information coming at me. I have considered the fact that the load might be a bit light , but according to the manuals it should be within range. I am shooting a load of 3.4 grns of 700x fired by CCI primers, I am still confused why the bullets on the Hewlans shoot so well and yet the taurus gives me fits. And on another slightly wierd note , the bullets are pretty accurate for me ( I am not an awesome shot , but at 25 yards , they are all in a foot square target; freehand).



Thanks 9.3 , the OAL is something that I was wanting badly , because at this point I am guessing , and the loading manuals have so many differnt OALs for different bullets. I got in my new Lee TC mold , and will make up some more bullets pretty soon as the weather is cooling down... sure the heck would be nice to see some bullets that are close to 100% reliable even if only for target practice. I still have over a 2K of the RN bullets though, so would like to get them to function properly.


I am using a RCBS Carbide die set, not sure if I am doing something wrong with it , but it is set up to the specs sent out with the dies. And all the bullets appear to be seating properly , including when checked on a straight edge and by feel.

I can not believe that a simple cartridge could be such a SOB. After loading tons (maybe a slight exaggeration , but a lot) of revolver cartridges , I can not believe that a puny straight walled cartridge is giving me so many fits. Tomorrow , I think that I am going to go load 50 new cartridges with the OAL of 1.140 as 9.3 said... at this point I would about try to load standing on my head. There seems to be no signs of over pressure on the primers. I thought that I figured out most things to reloading besides tweaking the loads... until I met the 9mms.

Thank you all, if for no other reason than I am getting encouragement. If I did not have so much brass and guns to shoot it , I might throw up my hands in discontent. It is funny in a way , my dad got me over 20 k of brass for free ( imagine a 80 year old man lugging over 100 lbs of brass ; other calibers too) . And here this is the caliber that I am having problems with; oh well once I get it figured out , I got him a gun to shoot the stuff with... another hewlan to match mine as I do like the guns even if they are inexpensive & they will shoot the bullets as loaded now; but I still want a bullet that will shoot in my Taurus.

[9.3X62AL]

59--

I hope we're able to get you shooting successfully. That OAL works in all of my 9mms still here and several that have left.

The BIGGEST frustration source in the 9mm Luger cartridge is the WIDE variances in dimensions of cartridge components AND chamber/throat/leade/groove measurements. I have personally slugged grooves from .354" to .358" in 9mm, and a majority of those run .356"/.357". Throats span the extremes from abrupt/non-existent to near-Weatherby style freebore........majority are like the former. Chambers are usually quite generous, which is fine in a service pistol--but if carried to extremes can play hob with cast boolit accuracy.

Then you add on the ridiculously fast twist given many 9mm pistol barrels, and it's a wonder that people bother reloading the caliber with castings. It's no "beginner caliber" for the handloader, esp. with lead boolits.

The best way to regard the 9mm Luger as a cast boolit platform is to treat it like it's a rifle. It runs at high pressure, it has a fast twist rate, and most boolit designs are plain-based. THE BOOLITS GOTTA FIT THE GROOVES. The metal has to be at least wheelweight hardness. Softer lubes (Javelina Alox in my case) have given me the best results. Start out seeking functional reliability and accuracy before attempting full-potential velocity--you'll save yourself some aggravation (and bore-scrubbing/lead-mining).

[lar45]

You should be able to rule out a couple of things easily.

Take the barrel out of your gun, drop a round in the chamber. Does it drop in all the way easily?

If not, find out where it's touching.
Bullet seated out too far and engageing the rifleings?
The bullets sized too large for the throat?
The case is bulging and not going into the chamber easily? -This could be from seating too deap or bullets not sized enough, or too heavy a crimp that is starting to buckle the case...

If the loaded round drops into the chamber easily, then look elsewhere.
Is the round getting hung up on the feedramp?
With the slide locked back and a loaded magazine in the gun, trip the slide release to let it chamber a round. Some people will hold onto the slide as it goes forward so it chambers more gently. This generally is not a good idea. You could end up with the slide not going all the way into battery, or the barrel not lineing up the same and getting a flier on the first round.

If you have more than one magazine, try a different mag to see if it's the same problem.

If it's still not chambering all the way, look at the round that did not chamber. Does the bullet have a dimple or scrape on one side? Maybe it is getting caught on something like the edge of the feedramp. If so, polish it some.

I have a couple of 45 acps and seem to have trouble with the AMT long slide hardballer. If the bullets are sized to .451" everything is fine. If they are .452" then it's nothing but problems.


Hope this helps some.


One more thought, someone metioned the Lee factory crimp die. It has a carbide ring at the base that will size the loaded round so if there is a bulge somewhere, it should size it down to fit. I had a bunch of 38 spl rounds that would not fit in one of my revolvers, so I ran them through the Lee crimp die and they worked great after that.

[Old Ephraim]

mauser1959,

I'll pipe in too. I was in the same boat a 4 years ago on reloading the 9mm. I'd bought a Beretta M9 prior to my oldest son joining the Army so he could get familiar with it before he left. I'm with the others that mentioned your OAL possibly being too short. I just measured one of mine, and the OAL is 1.115. My load consist of a 125 RNL (commercial), CCI primers, and 5.0 of Unique and averages 1152 fps when 8' from the chrony. I did very little playing around to get to this load, all I needed from it was to; 1. work the gun every time, and 2. shoot to the point of aim at 20 yards.

I have thousands of these loaded up, and while at the range recently with friends, those loads went thru my M9, and friends guns that included a Sig 226, a Sig P6, A Browning HP, and a S&W 3913 with no problems at all.

The only factory I've put thru that M9 is from a stockpile of the Winchester white box (Wal-mart stuff), from back when it was cheap. I just measured one of them (it's a 115 grain, FMJ load) and the OAL is 1.155. I've never had any problems with these either.

Old Ephraim

[Norseman]

I tried the LEE TL-356-124-TC in my CZ SP-01 Shadow, and I had to use an OAL of 1.09". Longer than that, the bullet got stuck in the grooves.

[9.3X62AL]

Mauser 59--

I picked up the latest issue of "Handloader" at Barnes & Noble, and it contains a pretty decent article on cast boolit reloading for the 9mm Luger--including OAL data. The issue has a couple other good articles on reloading cast boolits as well. Maybe our hobby is contagious.