.45/70 300 gr. bullets

[jednorris]

My 14 Y.O. grandson wants to let him Deer hunt with my Browning 1885 Rifle with a standard barrel. I have tried light loads with 405 gr. bullets and he is developing a flinch. I have heard many people shoot a cast 300 gr. bullet for Deer and they work well. I always felt a .45 cal. bullets that light was on the border line of being a Pistol bullet and might not work. Do they ?.

[country gent]

The easiest way to know is to get ahold of some and test them in the rifle and see. The twist rate will be on the fast side for it but may work okay.

You don't give the actual loading for it with the 405 grn. I have found true black powder loads to be an "easier" recoil than smokeless. You might try a lighter load with BP.

Load the 405 down to around 900-1000 fps using cream of wheat to fill air space. Your load would look like this:
XXXX case
XXXX Primer
XX grns of XX F BP
.030 wad
XX grns of cream of wheat
.060 wad compressed to bullet depth
XXXX 405grn or 300 grn bullet

You can fill space with a wad stack but that's more time consuming and trickier to do as the right thickness, number of, and order needs to be maintained.
Here experiment with powder compression by adding cream of wheat in 1-2 grn increments. once the load is found a powder measure can be set and used to drop the filler or a dipper made up for it.
Your Grandson may really like the BP loads with the added smoke and deeper thud / report they give.

[EDG]

I have shot hundreds of 300 grn bullets in the standard model Browning 1885 using 13 grn of Unique.
My velocity is probably not much higher than BP but you have to use a lot of care to avoid a double charge of those type powders. However they do work well for reducing recoil and being fun to shoot.
I would not try such loads with a trap door or other weaker design.
I have used the same recipe in both the #1 and #3 Rugers.

The 300 grn bullet I have used for most plinking is the Magma version with 2 crimp grooves that is commonly available in bulk quantities. However the very best I have shot are the 300 grn gas check bullets cast using a RCBS mold. If you can choose use the RCBS bullet or the plain base 325 grain version of it.

http://rcbs.com/Products/Bullet-Cast...00-FN-600.aspx

[kaiser]

A 300 or 305gr .458 diameter cast bullets are anything but "pistol" bullets in a 45/70! Driven with any reasonable starting charge of H4198, IMR3031, 2400, or SR4759 should get you a light enough load for the lad, while delivering enough power for any deer at the shorter ranges. I have a 1885 Browning in a 45/70 and using Trap Door starting loads are easy to deal with recoil wise and plenty accurate.

[Gray Fox]

I have the Ranch Dog 300 grain truncated cone TL GC mold that shoots very well in my Browning 1885 and Marlin Guide Gun using 45-45-10 for lube I load it with 2400 and a Dacron puff for very consistent loads. Remember that the most common commercial round is a jacketed 300 grain HP at about 1,850 fps and has been killing things for years. You don't have to push a wide meplat boolit nearly that fast for deer. GF

[Chill Wills]

I'd like to meet the deer that could stand up to a 300gr 45-70 lead bullet and a full load of 2F Olde Eynsford American Black Powder.

The old Winchester 1886 45-90 was loaded with a 300gr bullet and black powder too and maybe pushing the MV only a bit faster. The 45-70 would be easier on a younger guy 14 years old.
Good for the two of you getting to hunt with a 45-70. I hope he takes his deer! He will remember the hunt for the rest of his life.

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello Jed,

I shoot the RCBS 300 gr in both my Uberti 1885 & my Ruger #3, they still pack a wallop.
I did shoot a Buffalo with the 300 gr, 114 yards put him down. But I am using IMR 30-31.
I'd probably recommend your Grandson should use a different rifle.

AntiqueSledMan.

[indian joe]

Hello Jed,

I shoot the RCBS 300 gr in both my Uberti 1885 & my Ruger #3, they still pack a wallop.
I did shoot a Buffalo with the 300 gr, 114 yards put him down. But I am using IMR 30-31.
I'd probably recommend your Grandson should use a different rifle.

AntiqueSledMan.

a 14 yr old kid!!!! once he develops a flinch he will battle it for life!!! dont do that to him (been there done that one) dont do that to him !! a well placed shot from a lighter calibre will do him better than a flinched 45/70 regardless the load .....dont forget that noise is a big part of a flinch and you are dealing with young sensitive ears (we hope) ....so forget the short barrel guns.

[Edward]

I use 2400 / a half grain dacron (see Larry Gibsons sticky on how) under a NOE 350 grain FN .That is a load my grand daughter
can shoot and I can kill deer with . Some assembly is required !

[15meter]

Lyman 457122 may be an option also, 330+ grains with a big hollow point. Slow it down to 1200 fps and recoil will come down.

Cast them out of a soft alloy for expansion and ease of filling the bore.

You might want to use some mouse fart loads for practice/gun familiarization. You don't need full house loads to practice gun mounting/gun handling/trigger control.

It will still have enough whack to drop a deer, and not beat up the shooter.

[scattershot]

Nothing wrong with pistol bullets, either. Truckloads of deer are taken with them every year. I’m not sure where the idea started that you need an artillery field piece to kill a deer, but it ain’t so.

Look at the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook for some load data.

[NSB]

Here's a thought no one seems to be thinking of: if he's developing a flinch with this gun, he's developing bad shooting habits as well. You simply might be better off getting him something entirely different until he has enough experience and size to shoot the bigger bores. I like the 45-70 a lot. I own, and have owned many of them. They simply aren't light recoiling rifles (to most people and almost all women and youths) no matter what you put in them. Get your grandson something "lighter" to get him started and let the big boomers come along later. Get him hooked on hunting, not getting beat up by the gun. Just something to think about.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I have put down a moose and quite a few elk with 300 grain bullets from a light Marlin 1895 45-70, though recoil can be an issue. Killing a deer with a 300 gr 45 bullet should not be an issue. I have never quite understood WHY the 405 bullet is so popular, just more lead, more regular, and a rainbow trajectory. Either load light bullets, 250-300 gr at low velocities( 1100-1400 fps) or maybe a rifle that does recoil less. Rifle fit and a hard butt plate can be the problem. I put Limbsaver, Kick-eez, or HiViz recoil pads on everything I shoot, including 30-30's and .243's. You could even practice with round ball then move to a 300 gr for deer. I experience very good accuracy with 300gr bullets in my two Marlin 1895's and a Siamese Mauser, close to MOA if I have a high powered scope on them.

[country gent]

If hes going to be stand hunting a recoil reducer in the stock or adding some weight to the gun will also help reduce recoil. The recoil reducer would do a lot for him.

[NSB]

As a general rule, longer bullets shoot better than short ones. In a gun with a .4575" bore, longer means more weight. Every one of the 45-70's I've own/owned shot better with heavier bullets. If you look at the guys shooting silhouette/long range with these guns, none of them are using "light" (if you call 300g light) bullets for their long range shooting. Getting a legitimate 1moa with these guns for five shots is very doable.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

Rifle weight does have a great influence on recoil. Heavy long range rifles do recoil less and longer bullets and pointier bullets are less influenced by the wind. If you don't need to carry the rifle, add weight to reduce recoil. For PRACTICAL hunting ranges with a 45-70 (250 yards or less) the 300 grain bullets work just fine and can be VERY accurate. I forget most hunters no longer walk carrying a rifle to hunt so very heavy rifles in 45-70 are more common. If the young one can handle the weight, that will help.

[John in PA]

Remember that weight of powder adds to recoil energy. A black powder load will always recoil more than a smokeless load with the same bullet and the same muzzle velocity. A load with Unique or Blue Dot will let you use 1/4-1/3 total weight of propellant for the same velocity. Don't know if you're committed to using a cast bullet or not. Remember bullet expansion is driven partly by design, partly by velocity, and partly by alloy. The Gould hollow point cast 1:30 or so *probably* will perform reasonably well, but the Hornaday 300 gr hollow point with smokeless would probably be a more reliable killer, especially if you're trying to minimize recoil. I remember sending a Remington 400 grain Jacketed flat nose soft point with a stout load of 3031 right through the chest of a whitetail doe, and she ran 150 yards from standing where she was shot before dropping. I figured she'd drop like she was pole-axed. Nope. At 14, you want to make sure his first hunting experience doesn't end up with a long track or a lost wounded animal. YMMV

[MT Chambers]

There's not a lot of .459" pistol bullets out there...….Lyman's Gould hollow point is the deer bullet, bar none.

[Edward]

NOE 460 350 gr FN drops @ 460 and then I size 459 or whatever that particular gun likes ,and it comes in FB+GC in the same mold . 26 grains of 2400 and a 1/2 grain dacron under it and nobody walks far . Accurate to 200yds scoped/Ed

[TaylorS]

I haven’t tried reduced loads but I’ve done some with the Lyman 458191? 293gr fp with smokeless and it kicked hard while my starting load with bp and Lyman’s 405 bullet was super sweet to shoot


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