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Thread: .38 Special Wadcutter and Non-wadcutter Brass

  1. #21
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    Good info to know. Thanks for posting.

  2. #22
    Boolit Master smkummer's Avatar
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    I go through about 1K of cast wadcutters a year. Single cavity hollow base would be way too slow for the slight accuracy advantage. While I do have some older WW wadcutter brass that I load Lee’s TL 148 plain base cast 6 cavity bullets, they also get loaded in nickel RP brass of all bullet types including plus P with no issues. It must be noted that plain base wadcutters are shorter than hollow bases. 3 grains bullseye is my load.

  3. #23
    Boolit Master PBSmith's Avatar
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    Outpost75, I'm curious about your 0.360" bullets. Is that the diameter of your cylinder throats? If so, did you have them opened up?

  4. #24
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBSmith View Post
    Outpost75, I'm curious about your 0.360" bullets. Is that the diameter of your cylinder throats? If so, did you have them opened up?
    Throats are .3585 and came that way from the factory, they have not been reamed.

    Remington bullets come .360" diameter and fit into fired brass snugly which avoids having to resize the brass, decapping only, light flare, seat primer in CLEAN pocket. Bullet fits friction-tight in case to crimp separately.

    The Redding Profile Crimp die sizes the bullet by light compression inside the case.

    If you pull a loaded round and measure bullet after profiling the rounds they come out .358" which is perfect fit.
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  5. #25
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    What it sounds like is what ever works to allow for consistent neck tension without swaging bullet down to a poor fit is the way to go. I have separated WC brass, have enough to load for as long as it holds up. Considering HBWC gets a light charge to avoid blowing the skirt off brass should last well.

    I can tell when I use the NOE expanders with assorted calibers that seating the bullet "feels" more consistent and I think it shoots more consistently. I miss just as often but consistently.

    Those Redding Profile Crimp dies are $30 on Amazon and seem comparable to the taper crimp dies but for cartridges requiring a roll crimp. I found some other posts on the subject and some other people who's opinions I value also speak well of this Redding die.

    My normal 38 wad cutters are a Lyman mold with a crimp groove that seats the button nose slightly rounded end out a bit. Leaving the same amount of case impingement as my SWC or other rounds have. Same powder loads work fairly well for all of them since weight is close and case volume is the same. I do have some commercial HBWC and an NOE mold that casts them so I will be making note of the advice here. After all the point of using a WC or HBWC is to get accuracy on paper.
    Scrap.... because all the really pithy and emphatic four letter words were taken and we had to describe this source of casting material somehow so we added an "S" to what non casters and wives call what we collect.

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  6. #26
    Boolit Master PBSmith's Avatar
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    Underway here with trials of different .38 Special wadcutter bullets in wadcutter cases. Per Outpost's suggestion, I have sorted the brass. All case mouths measure 0.010-0.011" down about 7/16" from case mouth. Brass is of R-P manufacture.

    Here is an elementary question for which I should know the answer but time and age work against me.

    Is the appearance of black sooted or burned case mouths symptomatic of a basic flaw in my reloading, or is it a common occurrence? Charge is 2.7 grs of Bullseye behind WC's sized 0.358-0.359" for a Colt Officers Model Match. Lead (COWW) is lubed with an Xlox/Liquid Johnson's Floor Wax mixture. Cylinder ball ends on the OMM measure pretty consistent at 0.3585. I seem to be getting the sooty case mouths for rounds crimped either with medium roll (Lee dies) or a medium RCBS taper crimp.

  7. #27
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Sooty cases indicate that chamber pressure in not adequate to seal the case mouth.

    Try a slight increase in powder charge, up to about 3.0-3.2 grains.
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  8. #28
    Boolit Master PBSmith's Avatar
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    Thanks for that tip. I'm just about to charge another small run and will follow your suggestion.

    Come to think of it, when testing some of the "full-charge" wadcutter loads earlier this year (using 3.5 grs Bullseye and shooting in an early Colt Trooper 357), I was getting better groups than what I've seen of late with only 2.7 grs in the longer-barreled OMM. Maybe your chamber pressure explanation is the reason why.

  9. #29
    Boolit Grand Master tazman's Avatar
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    It isn't at all uncommon for faster loads to group better. That was what the revolvers were designed for after all.
    The light loads allow getting back on target quicker and are usually perfectly accurate at close range.

  10. #30
    Boolit Master PBSmith's Avatar
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    Tried 75's suggestion. I'm up to the max charge of Bullseye given in current load guides (3.5 grs) for a 148-gr wadcutter. At this level the soot is usually absent on case mouths and accuracy is better than with any lesser amount of powder.

    I'm puzzled by the latter (accuracy at full charge). Don't know how many times I've read that 2.7-2.8 grs Bullseye is the all-time, favorite standby, ever-faithful, ever-accurate, Holy Grail load for a .38 wadcutter of this weight. In the old NRA reloading manual (c. 1960), 2.7-2.8 grains Bullseye was the chosen load by most of the expert bullseye shooters of the day, including Gil Hebbard, John Hurst and others.

    Don't understand why my Officers Model Match needs 3.5 grains, especially since I'm shooting the same bullet as the old masters (H&G 50). Could it be that my jug of BE is anemic?

  11. #31
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    I remember reading somewhere that the BE formula was updated and some naughty chemical with a long alphabet name was removed or replaced which is the cause of the load data disparity. Supposedly since it didn't change the burn rate the name designation didn't have to change even though it was a "new" formula.

  12. #32
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Your Bullseye is normal. I always got better accuracy at 50 yards with the heavier charge.
    The traditional 2.7-2.8 grains often listed is based on the factory charge for dead-soft HBWC bullets to avoid blowing the skirt.
    Target shooters wanted the powder puff loads to reduce recovery time in the timed and rapid stages.
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  13. #33
    Boolit Master quail4jake's Avatar
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    If you have a lathe....I have been experimenting with NOE expanders and got best results using .001" smaller than boolit diameter and I shorten or lengthen the boolit seat portion to the length being seated plus a hair. I adjust it to give just enough flare to reliably hold the boolit in place for seating and avoid lead shear. When it comes to sizing less is more, for sure! I like Outpost's idea of not sizing at all as long as the boolit doesn't loosely drop in the case, will try it. That expander portion length becomes really important with stubby cases like .32 S&W and .38 S&W, there's very little room to seat the boolit without expanding the web or swaging the base, that may not be as critical in longer cases. In long necked rifle cases I have turned the expander portion longer to expand the entire neck to accommodate longer boolits to deeper depths, only an issue in .30-30 etc. Got that idea from the fact that Swede makes a longer .309/.313 expander plug for .30-30. NOE explanders for the lee flare die are the way to go and well thought out, with just a little custom tweaking they allow you to create an ideal boolit seat in your cases.

  14. #34
    Boolit Master PBSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by quail4jake View Post
    If you have a lathe....I have been experimenting with NOE expanders and got best results using .001" smaller than boolit diameter and I shorten or lengthen the boolit seat portion to the length being seated plus a hair. I adjust it to give just enough flare to reliably hold the boolit in place for seating and avoid lead shear. When it comes to sizing less is more, for sure! I like Outpost's idea of not sizing at all as long as the boolit doesn't loosely drop in the case, will try it. That expander portion length becomes really important with stubby cases like .32 S&W and .38 S&W, there's very little room to seat the boolit without expanding the web or swaging the base, that may not be as critical in longer cases. In long necked rifle cases I have turned the expander portion longer to expand the entire neck to accommodate longer boolits to deeper depths, only an issue in .30-30 etc. Got that idea from the fact that Swede makes a longer .309/.313 expander plug for .30-30. NOE explanders for the lee flare die are the way to go and well thought out, with just a little custom tweaking they allow you to create an ideal boolit seat in your cases.
    Yes . . . IF I had a lathe (and knew how to use it). I currently use the Lee flaring tool you speak of, with NOE expander plugs, and have been well-pleased with that set up. Been thinking about asking Mr. Swede how much he would charge for a 38 wadcutter expander of the correct length (depth). I don't believe any of his current stock items will accomplish what's being discussed here. I'm sizing my wc's to 0.359, and would like the smaller part of a plug to expand to 0.358. I also use the Lyman M-die, and might call that company to see if they ever made a plug to suit this 38 Special job.

    Thanks for posting.

  15. #35
    Boolit Master PBSmith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Outpost75 View Post
    Once the factory wadcutters are fired, the inside constriction at the cannelure is entirely gone and I wouldn't worry about it. What I would be more concerned about is how much your sizing die works the case. Most modern die sets size the case to provide an inside diameter of .354-.355" to provide a tight friction-fit with jacketed bullets. If cases are flared only and not expanded to sufficient depth, the tight case body will damage the skirt of an HBWC bullet. This is less a factor in solid, DEWCs unless the bullets are dead-soft. 1:30 tin-lead or wheelweights at 10-12 BHN should be no issue.

    I use an RCBS Cowboy sizer which doesn't work the brass as much.

    With modern thick-walled .38 Special +P brass dimensioned to provide heavier bullet pull with jacketed bullets, the loaded cartridge diameter over the bullet may exceed SAAMI max. cartridge diameter. If rounds resist chambering in your revolver, the condition can be corrected by running the loaded rounds through the Lee Factory Crimp Die or Redding profile crimper, but be advised you are then sizing the bullet by compression inside the case, and your efforts towards getting a perfect bullet fit in the cylinder throats may be defeated.

    In revolvers it usually helps to seat DEWC bullets with one full-diameter driving band outside the case, particularly when shooting .38s in a .357 (see my Highway Patrolman group with +P+ DEWCs) so that it can aid maintaining alignment of rounds in the chambers upon discharge. A fast-burning powder like Bullseye will then upset the bullet in the throats, while the throat-sized front band steers it straight, so accuracy is not impaired. In tight-chambered revolvers such as Colt Officers Model Match and Python .38 Special Target you may need to flush-seat, but in those guns accuracy can be amazing, even with full-charge loads.

    Attachment 243518Attachment 243519Attachment 243520Attachment 243522

    Older Federal wadcutter made before about 1990 had an excellent reputation for accuracy. In the late 1980s there were some issues when Federal wadcutter was fired in .357 Magnum chambers, when the soft bullets transitioned from the 1.155" .38 Special case into the cylinder throats or ball seats in the longer 1.30" .357 chamber, because the HB skirt was unsupported for a short distance in the longer chamber and would upset to fill the available space.

    Due to the square shape and positioning of the lubricating grooves, the rear lube groove served as a stress riser. When the base upset, the front end of the bullet continued forward while the inflated skirt was held momentarily by wedging against the chamber cone, causing the bullet to elongate and the skirt to break off in a ductile failure. I witnessed an entire new-agent class undergoing preliminary revolver instruction average 66 hits on a 60 shot tactical revolver course when the agency issued its first class with .357 Magnum Model 13 S&Ws, which replaced the former .38 Special Model 10-8s being used at that time.

    Shortly after that Federal changed their wadcutter bullet to a smooth-sided bullet with knurled surface, similar to the Hornady, using a dry lube. That solves the skirt separation problem, but the later ammo was never as accurate or as clean shooting as the former grooved bullets lubricated with Johnson 700 Wax-Draw.

    Remington and Winchester wadcutters never had this problem, so far as I know, because they used a wider, shallower, radiussed knurling tool on their bullets, which presented a greater area of lubricant to the bore surface. The Remington 148-grain HBWC component bullet is the only hollow-based one I know of which will maintain normal target accuracy at 50 yards even when loaded with full charges of 3.5 grains of Bullseye or TiteGroup or 4 grains of W231 or HP38.

    I used to prefer the Winchester bullets back when I could get them and they were the best. They also used the Johnson 700 wax-draw lube also used by Federal. But the Remington bullets, lubricated with graphite and Japan wax, properly loaded will shoot 1-1/2" ten-shot groups at 50 yards from a good custom PPC revolver.

    About 2" to 2-1/2" for ten-shot groups at 50 yards, from a good PPC gun or test barrel is the best you can expect as a long-run average firing good cast bullets, unless you go to "extreme measures." These are:

    1) always load the sprue-cut forward

    2) Use a straight-line Wilson-type seater in an arbor press

    3) Always seating and crimp in separate operations, using the Redding Profile crimper.

    4) Always hand-seat Federal 100 or Remington 1-1/2 primers in a clean primer pocket in which the flash holes have been uniformed and the primer pockets cut to uniform depth.

    5) Use only cases trimmed to uniform length which are sorted into like batches of +/- 1 grain.

    6) Use bullets which are perfect to visual inspection and checked weighed, using the center 2-sigma of your normal distribution. The outliers will also shoot well, but should be lotted up separately, rather than being mixed with the others. Weight variation is more due to alloy variation than to shrinkage porosity or voids, if your casting technique is correct. But should some bullets have minor imperfections at the sprue cut, always orienting the sprue forward reduces any adverse effects upon grouping.

    Paying attention to the above, your handloads can shoot as well as good old factory stuff, and certainly better than 95% of the wadcutter ammo sold today which only has to go BANG~! in CCW classes.
    Outpost, in the upper left photo showing your loaded cartridges, it looks like you put a fairly heavy roll crimp into the crimp groove of the SAECO 348 bullet. I grabbed a Lyman 35863 mold off e-bay that looks to be about the same design as the Saeco you mention - double-end, double-bevel, except instead of two crimp grooves it has three deep lube grooves Wondering if I should seat flush or try a big roll in the groove. Seated flush, I might get by with less crimp.

  16. #36
    Boolit Grand Master Outpost75's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PBSmith View Post
    Outpost, in the upper left photo showing your loaded cartridges, it looks like you put a fairly heavy roll crimp into the crimp groove of the SAECO 348 bullet. I grabbed a Lyman 35863 mold off e-bay that looks to be about the same design as the Saeco you mention - double-end, double-bevel, except instead of two crimp grooves it has three deep lube grooves Wondering if I should seat flush or try a big roll in the groove. Seated flush, I might get by with less crimp.
    Worth a try. I like the beveled front band exposed so as to be speed-loader friendly.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check