Another .500 Smith Saga

[Dieselhorses]

Ok folks, don’t know if I mentioned this yet but I found a bag of fired cases (.500 CBC) and was scratching my head because if they were fired then they musta fit! Turns out that “those” cases measured .015 on the case wall! So now I’m assuming that all CBC cases are not created equal!

I’m also wondering if Magtech loads a smaller (.495) bullet in the thick walled cases. If those bullets are hollow based then that would permit proper “obturation” but that’s only a theory.

Update...put a call into Magtech, waiting on tech to email me back

[Petander]

Very good,now at least part of the mystery is solved.

Can't wait for their reply.

[Dieselhorses]

From MT:

Looking at the spec sheet from the factory and changing mm to inches:

Bullet spec is 0.498-0.499”
Case OD is max 0.5299”
Case ID is max 0.500”

This on the max could give the wall thickness of 0.0299” if you had both extremes. split the difference you will have 0.015” for a case thickness. Spec sheet gives manufacturer tolerances of 0.003” so I would assume both will be within specification.

Max bullet of 0.499 plus the case wall of 0.018 is still inside of the cartridge over all max OD of 0.5299”

Maybe not the best explanation for what you are looking for but let me know your thoughts.
__________________________________

Still doesn’t add up.

Update: Tech said that older lots were actually thicker as he asked me what the lot # was. Well I didn't buy the ammo loaded from factory so....Still looking into it.



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[Petander]

From MT:



Max bullet of 0.499 plus the case wall of 0.018 is still inside of the cartridge over all max OD of 0.5299”

My math says OD is 5335 here. Who is this "MT"? That wouldn't chamber for sure.

I have been going through my Magtech brass, my oldest is from 2003... no thick walls here.

But it's a big mystery how anything has been fired using the thick brass... unless factory is using some crazy cartridge sizing machinery...?

I got the Lee collet crimper,it's a very powerful tool. I loaded a box of cast,seated deeper so there's no groove to crimp in. Then crimped with Lee, all bullets stayed on place and fired good. Hi Tek coating. Clean barrel even without gas checks,I left the checks out to cut down some pressure when seated deeper.

Here you can see what the Lee collet crimp does when overdone:

[Dieselhorses]

My math says OD is 5335 here. Who is this "MT"? That wouldn't chamber for sure.

I have been going through my Magtech brass, my oldest is from 2003... no thick walls here.

But it's a big mystery how anything has been fired using the thick brass... unless factory is using some crazy cartridge sizing machinery...?

I got the Lee collet crimper,it's a very powerful tool. I loaded a box of cast,seated deeper so there's no groove to crimp in. Then crimped with Lee, all bullets stayed on place and fired good. Hi Tek coating. Clean barrel even without gas checks,I left the checks out to cut down some pressure when seated deeper.

Here you can see what the Lee collet crimp does when overdone:

"MT" is MagTech. According to the discalimer in email, I'm not supposed to share info in email, but...

I'm sure the tech from MagTech wouldn't enjoy each and every one of us writing in on this! Anyway, at the end of the day, looks like the older cases were thicker than new. He said he was going to try to find some of these "thicker" cases and load them and let me know.

In reference to the Lee collette crimper, you crimped above the crimp grove? Wouldn't this raise pressure? I do like that crimp though!

[DougGuy]

In reference to the Lee collette crimper, you crimped above the crimp grove? Wouldn't this raise pressure? I do like that crimp though!

I like that collet crimp too, but it needs modded to make it work right. You can see on the boolit, a good .060" in front of the case mouth, where the collet closed. It left a ring on the boolit. And the case, is nothing more than roll crimped because the crimp ring in the collet crimp die (as shipped from Lee) crimps too high up on the case, it barely crimps the case at all as you can see from the photos.

I shorten the nose of the collet to narrow the crimp band by about 65%, and I shorten the bottom of the collet to lower the crimp ring down onto the case mouth, I like to crimp slightly below the case mouth. Even in the heaviest calibers, boolits are held steadfast against movement until firing. The collet also adds a little resistance which gives the flame front time to light the powder good, and resist the boolit jumping forward from the pressure of the primer lighting off. This cuts down the SD by a very noticeable amount.

Here is a thread detailing the mods I do to my collet crimp dies, quite a few members here have sent dies as well. This is *THE* crimp you want to employ for rounds used in dangerous game country, as your life could depend on your handloads not jumping crimp. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=1#post2239315

Here you can see what the Lee collet crimp does when overdone:

One other thing about the collet crimp die, some of them are tight on the ID of the crimp band, my 44 caliber very gently scrapes the sided of a .432" as it is pushed up into the die. I can see this same deformation of the hi tek coated boolit in the OP's post, you can see where the collet left a ridge from one of the four slots as it slid down over the boolit. This crimp band would likely be better suited to the OP's loads if honed out just a tad bit. This honing also affects how much it will crimp when it is fully closed. You can do a lot with these collet dies, there is a considerable advantage to "fitting" them to your specific boolit and case diameters.

[Dieselhorses]

I like that collet crimp too, but it needs modded to make it work right. You can see on the boolit, a good .060" in front of the case mouth, where the collet closed. It left a ring on the boolit. And the case, is nothing more than roll crimped because the crimp ring in the collet crimp die (as shipped from Lee) crimps too high up on the case, it barely crimps the case at all as you can see from the photos.

I shorten the nose of the collet to narrow the crimp band by about 65%, and I shorten the bottom of the collet to lower the crimp ring down onto the case mouth, I like to crimp slightly below the case mouth. Even in the heaviest calibers, boolits are held steadfast against movement until firing. The collet also adds a little resistance which gives the flame front time to light the powder good, and resist the boolit jumping forward from the pressure of the primer lighting off. This cuts down the SD by a very noticeable amount.

Here is a thread detailing the mods I do to my collet crimp dies, quite a few members here have sent dies as well. This is *THE* crimp you want to employ for rounds used in dangerous game country, as your life could depend on your handloads not jumping crimp.



One other thing about the collet crimp die, some of them are tight on the ID of the crimp band, my 44 caliber very gently scrapes the sided of a .432" as it is pushed up into the die. I can see this same deformation of the hi tek coated boolit in the OP's post, you can see where the collet left a ridge from one of the four slots as it slid down over the boolit. This crimp band would likely be better suited to the OP's loads if honed out just a tad bit. This honing also affects how much it will crimp when it is fully closed. You can do a lot with these collet dies, there is a considerable advantage to "fitting" them to your specific boolit and case diameters.

How much did you take off the top of the collette? It certainly appears that your crimp is much more uniform and uses "tension" more than just depending on the roll crimp in crimp groove. Looks more professional.

[Petander]

Excellent,thank you very much,Doug. I appreciate.

I loaded and fired a box today,trying a normal crimp in a cannelure with the Lee collet die. Worked easy and good imo. But I have a no-crimp-groove mold coming,need to study the modifications.

Diesel,yes the pressure was higher because I seated deeper to try heavy crimp with no groove. I left gas checks out to compensate for the pressure rise. And my load is not max here anyway.

[DougGuy]

The link I posted has all the photos, you can see how much was taken off, about 65% of the crimp band was removed from the top to make it narrower. One photo shows the un modified collet sitting on a 45 Colt case, and the crimp band comes up well beyond the case mouth. Who needs to crimp the boolit ahead of the case? Ridiculous.

[Petander]

Doug,that's an excellent tutorial.

One question: How do you get the collet out of the die body?

[Dieselhorses]

Was doing a search on where I could find and M die for 500 just to make sure bullets didn't get swaged down like Doug mentioned. Upon searching I found this thread here referencing the same issue I was having. Funny no one even once suspected the brass! Not saying this is the case every time but I'm sure it was for me.

Trying to find company who has a .501 M-die AND a FCD so I can just pay shipping once...

[DougGuy]

Doug,that's an excellent tutorial.

One question: How do you get the collet out of the die body?

I use something that fits in the bore of the die really closely, put the die in a vise and tap the collet out. I have grabbed up a piece of round stock and chucked it in the lathe, turned it down to fit.

The collet is relatively soft material and it is easy to damage the top of the fingers if you don't get something in there that fits snug.

[Petander]

Thanks again,Doug.

Trying to find company who has a .501 M-die AND a FCD so I can just pay shipping once...

I ordered .510 plugs from NOE,asking them to turn them to .499 and .500. I got no reply to my questions (email or the message within order) but the goods are here at the customs right now,we will see.

I only partially size my brass ,that way I have managed loading cast without proper expanders. Redding and RCBS are .495-496. I use the flare part.

That thread is an interesting find. It was his 5th reload so brass thickness wasn't an issue there.

[Petander]

Well I didn't get any NOE 499/500 expanders or any replies for emails/messages. Got two .510 expanders instead.

Communication is kinda bad -but the mold is great, I loaded some .5015 with VV N110 today. The beautiful bullet has no grooves at all. I let them sit for a week before loading, not very hard but nice,malleable around 14 I think.

I touched the rounds with a Hornady taper crimp die first for easy "plunking". Then I used the Lee collet crimp for a "forced roll crimp". Shooting tomorrow.



.

[Petander]

Yep,the Lee collet crimper can crimp grooveless bullets.

305 grains @ 1600 fps, VV N110. A 4" S&W (Actually it is 3").

.

Accuracy looked promising,I was shooting steel @ 75 meters.

(That black crud on brass is graphite.)

[GONRA]

GONRA sez - to quote the Wise Sage BigAlofPA:
"When i have chambering issues. A Lee factory crimp die. Usually takes care of it. I learned that lesson on some tight chambered 9mm."

Asa general rule for our usual "slam-bang semiauto pistol handloads", if you copulated up on case diameter dimensions,
run loaded rounds thru a Lee Factory Crimp Die - probably will upgefix it all... USUALLY DOES!!!

[Petander]

Lee doesn't make a standard carbide ring FCD for 500 S&W, only the collet version which does not size the whole round.

Redding Profile Crimp die can be used to resize loaded rounds if needed... it's really tight and makes taper AND roll crimp if wanted. But in OP:s case of thick wall brass... you know what will happen to the bullet when you squeeze the whole round...

This collet die is good. Sorry for the ugly brass,it's graphite...

[Dieselhorses]

Not too shabby Petander! Rounds look good.


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