Unique perspective on violence

[Wayne Smith]

We have always been a violent society - there was a boxing match in NYC in the early 1900's where everyone entering had to surrender their firearm. There were substantially more firearms collected than there were people at the fight! Our right to keep and bear arms presumes a violent society. We have lost a basic respect for one another that has usually before been in place except on the fringes of the society. This lack of fundamental respect has prevaded our entire society, and I do believe that the media (movies, games, TV shows, etc.) has had a large role in this loss.

I also agree that the medications do not effectively work for everyone, and we are now just under 20 years into the drugs that increase positive affect rather than only decreasing the negitive affect for the psychotic and bipolar. Everyone, unless an identical twin, has a unique biochemistry. No one knows how a medication with work for you until it is tried and you inform your MD. You need an MD who is willing to be educated by you about your physiology - then their next guess will be better. Every MD literally 'practices' medicine. We do not have the 'silver bullet' that only does one thing reliably for everyone - it doesn't exist.

Don't let this discount the thousands that these medications have helped. No, it is not a cure - there is none known. But they do help management, allowing the patient to manage their own behavior.

[Idaho45guy]

There is a stigmata attached to being treated for mental illness and a perceived embarrassment on the part of the family that has someone being so treated.

It's more than a stigma... It's now an excuse to take away your guns.

Washington State passed a new law that before being allowed to buy a semi-automatic rifle of any kind, you have to fill out a form and pay a fee and let the local police chief or sheriff review your medical and mental health records to determine if they will allow you to have a gun.

I quit smoking last Summer and was having a horrible time. Doc prescribed me Prozac, which I tried for a couple of weeks and didn't like. So now I have officially been on anti-depressants, which our corrupt and idiotic local police chief can now use as a reason to deny me my constitutional rights.

You think your medical and mental health records are private? Nope. Everything is being hacked and stolen. You think that with the advent of social media and cyber bullying that someone is going to seek help for mental health issues?

Heck, I had to leave a couple of gun forums because one sick individual is cyber stalking me and harassing me online. Luckily he hasn't shown up here, yet. It's scary the things this person would find in my past from over ten years ago by finding old posts.

We have created the perfect society in which mental illness and evil is flourishing and have tied our hands to deal with it.

[nagantguy]

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/...for-bankruptcy

So now it’s over 2,000 separate law suits but all
With this theme- doctors getting paid- TWICE to PUSH highly addictive drugs- regardless if they helped or were even needed. Over 47,000 ods just from prescription opioid in 2017 alone. Unless you start life as a street junky there is only one way Mom and pop Joe Normy American is getting hooked on these life destroying pills- from their doctors, same doctors whom got them and their children hooked forever on SSRIs with ever diminishing returns.

[WRideout]

In years past, at least in rural and small-town America, hunting was a rite of passage into adulthood. Years were spent grooming children in the use of deadly weapons, teaching them responsibility, respect, teamwork, and many other positive attributes. As we become more and more an imaginary world of cyberspace, parents are not raising their children to be ethical hunters. The use of deadly force has been displaced into the nether world of virtual reality (which is not real in any sense.)

Some time ago, I was visiting my daughter and son-in-law at their home. SIL had a new video game from Cabela's that was billed as a hunting exercise. He set it up, assembled the "gun" and started the game. Cartoon animals appeared on screen, which he immediately "shot." More appeared, which were shot, and the bodies began to pile up. Soon not only deer and rabbits, but ducks flying by, all to be laid waste. I tried my hand at it, and soon had a pile of dead virtual animals on the screen. The whole thing rather sickened me. I will never participate in such a game again, and I am actually rather surprised that a firm such as Cabela's would put their stamp on it.

The disciplines of hunting are patience, woodcraft, knowledge of the prey, and understanding of your weapon along with many others. When those are lost, society has lost more than just the annual game feed at a church. We are losing our soul.

Wayne

[15meter]

I believe a fair amount of mental illness is genetic/hereditary. We closed the mental hospitals and we have had a couple of generations of mentally ill cross breeding with other mentally ill and are getting the results.

Two or three generations of pick your genetic malady, MS, Parkinson's, various cancers, only have those in the gene pool and what are the odds that every offspring is going to have it and worse.

I'm not smart enough to see how that is not happening to the mentally ill.

Rarely does a low IQ couple have a Mensa candidate, fairly common with a high IQ couple. I wonder why?

[Three44s]

In years past, at least in rural and small-town America, hunting was a rite of passage into adulthood. Years were spent grooming children in the use of deadly weapons, teaching them responsibility, respect, teamwork, and many other positive attributes. As we become more and more an imaginary world of cyberspace, parents are not raising their children to be ethical hunters. The use of deadly force has been displaced into the nether world of virtual reality (which is not real in any sense.)

Some time ago, I was visiting my daughter and son-in-law at their home. SIL had a new video game from Cabela's that was billed as a hunting exercise. He set it up, assembled the "gun" and started the game. Cartoon animals appeared on screen, which he immediately "shot." More appeared, which were shot, and the bodies began to pile up. Soon not only deer and rabbits, but ducks flying by, all to be laid waste. I tried my hand at it, and soon had a pile of dead virtual animals on the screen. The whole thing rather sickened me. I will never participate in such a game again, and I am actually rather surprised that a firm such as Cabela's would put their stamp on it.

The disciplines of hunting are patience, woodcraft, knowledge of the prey, and understanding of your weapon along with many others. When those are lost, society has lost more than just the annual game feed at a church. We are losing our soul.

Wayne

I am also amazed that Cabelas would sell something like that, what a recruitment tool for PETA!

Three44s

[Three44s]

Yeah. . .because nobody EVER killed, incarcerated, or called someone else as "crazy" over disagreements about God. ..................

Individuals and religions can call their actions appropriate based on anything but that is only an excuse. Their flawed actions do not reflect on God nor do they give Satan a pass.

Best regards

Three44s

[AggieEE]

Lot of interesting information here. Some years back I had a part-timer who also worked at the YMCA with kids. He was telling me that most of the kids were on ADHD meds. He told me that he has seen kids go to mellow to full rage in no time. His conclusion was that if the kid didn't need ADHD meds and take them he was a walking time bomb. The statement "lock the crazies up" sounds like a solution it is also a slippery slope covered in lubricating oil. A friend of mine committed suicide some time back, the Sunday before we were shooting skeet laughing, joking saying his girlfriend could set me up with a double date with them, etc. Next week at the range they told me he killed himself. If I had the slightest idea that he was going to do that I would have sat on him till help arrived.

[dangitgriff]

Our right to keep and bear arms presumes a violent government, Wayne.
It’s only history.

[FISH4BUGS]

https://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/...for-bankruptcy
So now it’s over 2,000 separate law suits but all
With this theme- doctors getting paid- TWICE to PUSH highly addictive drugs- regardless if they helped or were even needed. Over 47,000 ods just from prescription opioid in 2017 alone. Unless you start life as a street junky there is only one way Mom and pop Joe Normy American is getting hooked on these life destroying pills- from their doctors, same doctors whom got them and their children hooked forever on SSRIs with ever diminishing returns.

With all due respect, MILLIONS of people use the opioids for pain relief and never get addicted. I think that many of those that DO get addicted have a pre-disposition to addiction, like addiction to alcohol and cigarrettes. I come from a long line of alcoholics and three of the four siblings have abused drugs and alcohol and smoke to this very day. One is dead. Two have bad health.
I am fortunate in that the addictive gene seems to have missed me and I work at staying healthy. I can't say that for my surviving siblings.
There has to be some measure of personal responsibility here. When I was prescribed opioids for an injury I began to realize that i LIKED them, even took a few just for the heck of it, and backed off from taking them. I went to PT, did exercises religiously and still hurt, but certainly not enough to keep taking drugs.
There is a legitimate use for opioids.

[Wayne Smith]

There is an appropriate use for opoids but, contrary to popular opinion, chronic pain is NOT it. We are now realizing that continued use of opioids can actually increase the perception of pain, not remove it. They are great for breaking pain and post operative pain, but not for chronic use.

[Thundarstick]

There is an appropriate use for opoids but, contrary to popular opinion, chronic pain is NOT it. We are now realizing that continued use of opioids can actually increase the perception of pain, not remove it. They are great for breaking pain and post operative pain, but not for chronic use.

Holy ****! I've been saying that very thing for years! Now how long is it going to take that to too move into field practice? I see the same thing with patients coming to the ER. Once many of them are on the stronger opioids they're in the ER constantly for pain, this usually goes on for a few years until they die! It doesn't happen to everyone, but more than most of you know. I see the same thing in my wife, she's always got some sort of pain that NEEDS a pain pill, and an MD that keeps her a constant supply!

[white eagle]

As a licensed clinical psychologist (VA lic. #0810001993) I have a somewhat unique perspective. As a historian (untrained) I add to this. My perspective is this:

Two generations ago we emptied the mental hospitals nationwide with medications. One generation ago we greatly improved the efficacy of those medications. All good, right? Over 90% of the diagnoses that placed one in those mental hospitals are genetic in origin. The medications put these people back into society, families, and as fully functioning people.

We now are on the third generation of people who have not seen the devastation the symptoms cause, have no idea of their genetic heritage, and the onset of these symptoms is often subtle and unremarkable to the person. Major Depression with it's possible suicidal and homicidal ideation, Schizophrenia with it's cognitive decline and confusion, and Bipolar in it's manic and mixed episodes all present danger, especially when paranoia is involved.

The onset of these symptoms is often not obvious. We have the example of a medical student who dropped out in his sophomore year and shot up a theater. Just from the news reports it was evident to me that he was in the throes of a psychotic break - but he had been under daily or weekly observation by MD's in his school and they did not catch it. If you would like to experience hallucinations get the movie A Beautiful Mind with Russel Crowe. You will see how 'normal' the experience is internally. I have a client who told me her mother once fired a gun in the house. The person she shot at wasn't there, but she did not know that.

The solution? I'm not sure other than a massive educational program focused on knowing one's genetic heritage and the appropriate treatment.

interesting to say the least
never really gave mental health a second thought

[JBinMN]

We have always been a violent society - there was a boxing match in NYC in the early 1900's where everyone entering had to surrender their firearm. There were substantially more firearms collected than there were people at the fight! Our right to keep and bear arms presumes a violent society. We have lost a basic respect for one another that has usually before been in place except on the fringes of the society. This lack of fundamental respect has prevaded our entire society, and I do believe that the media (movies, games, TV shows, etc.) has had a large role in this loss.

I also agree that the medications do not effectively work for everyone, and we are now just under 20 years into the drugs that increase positive affect rather than only decreasing the negitive affect for the psychotic and bipolar. Everyone, unless an identical twin, has a unique biochemistry. No one knows how a medication with work for you until it is tried and you inform your MD. You need an MD who is willing to be educated by you about your physiology - then their next guess will be better. Every MD literally 'practices' medicine. We do not have the 'silver bullet' that only does one thing reliably for everyone - it doesn't exist.

Don't let this discount the thousands that these medications have helped. No, it is not a cure - there is none known. But they do help management, allowing the patient to manage their own behavior.

I disagree with the Bolded above, in the quote.

We have always been a society "ready" for violence, when necessary. The majority not actively seeking it, but willing to defend ourselves from violence acts, with violent reactions to those violent acts.


For the second Bolded i n the above quoted post,

Our Right to Bear Arms does not presume we are a violent society, but like said before, willing to defend against violence, as well as tyrannical acts of our government, with arms, if necessary.

The sentences I included as "a better fit", IMO, to the Bolded in your post, seem to reflect a better description than what was used.
Like said, In My Opinion.

[MrWolf]

There is an appropriate use for opoids but, contrary to popular opinion, chronic pain is NOT it. We are now realizing that continued use of opioids can actually increase the perception of pain, not remove it. They are great for breaking pain and post operative pain, but not for chronic use.

For those of us in chronic pain what then is the solution? I know in my case surgery is not an option due to the levels and severity of my neck/back. I have never gotten high or even felt that from the prescriptions I have taken. For me it barely takes the edge off. I know of at least one other here whose back is also messed up and am sure she would agree that those that are really in pain don't get high from it nor ever have.

[popper]

most of the kids were on ADHD meds. Have an acquaintance with 3 kids, claims all are somewhat ADD. Tested when they were 1 yr old. Could be genetic, I don't know but putting them on meds that early is bound to cause a problem. When I was a kid, one had polio, one was epileptic and one was really 'slow'. Pretty big schools so a large sample size. Don't think the docs have found the 'cause' yet. But they think they have a solution?

[2wheelDuke]

As a licensed clinical psychologist (VA lic. #0810001993) I have a somewhat unique perspective. As a historian (untrained) I add to this. My perspective is this:

Two generations ago we emptied the mental hospitals nationwide with medications. One generation ago we greatly improved the efficacy of those medications. All good, right? Over 90% of the diagnoses that placed one in those mental hospitals are genetic in origin. The medications put these people back into society, families, and as fully functioning people.

We now are on the third generation of people who have not seen the devastation the symptoms cause, have no idea of their genetic heritage, and the onset of these symptoms is often subtle and unremarkable to the person. Major Depression with it's possible suicidal and homicidal ideation, Schizophrenia with it's cognitive decline and confusion, and Bipolar in it's manic and mixed episodes all present danger, especially when paranoia is involved.

The onset of these symptoms is often not obvious. We have the example of a medical student who dropped out in his sophomore year and shot up a theater. Just from the news reports it was evident to me that he was in the throes of a psychotic break - but he had been under daily or weekly observation by MD's in his school and they did not catch it. If you would like to experience hallucinations get the movie A Beautiful Mind with Russel Crowe. You will see how 'normal' the experience is internally. I have a client who told me her mother once fired a gun in the house. The person she shot at wasn't there, but she did not know that.

The solution? I'm not sure other than a massive educational program focused on knowing one's genetic heritage and the appropriate treatment.

You make some good points. This is definitely a problem that's been festering for quite some time.

I've had a front row seat for last 13 years when I joined the Law Enforcement trade. Unfortunately, most of the community's mental health burden seems to be falling on law enforcement. Or at least law enforcement winds up on the tip of that spear.

The previous hospital arrangement seemed to be a terrible thing. I've heard nothing but horror stories from that era. Some of them are first hand from a guy I've become friends with. He had some really bad times in the old Florida State Hospital. What's left of the old state mental hospital is said to be one of the most haunted places in the state, and I can see why people would say so.

However, the current system isn't working out all that great either, and there has to be some sort of happier medium possible.

[725]

There are, no doubt, some cracked coconuts out there, and some evil folks who just make a choice. Both ends of the spectrum cause violence and both have to be dealt with. A one size fits all answer will never work.

[oldscool]

So is the consensus to neuter or gass those with these genetic defects. Surely with the growing popularity of people giving their dna for ancestry testing the defective could be weeded out. &*&^%&*^()&^*(
Heck I sure would feel comfortable with a licensed quacker determining fates.

[Wayne Smith]

I disagree with the Bolded above, in the quote.

We have always been a society "ready" for violence, when necessary. The majority not actively seeking it, but willing to defend ourselves from violence acts, with violent reactions to those violent acts.


For the second Bolded i n the above quoted post,

Our Right to Bear Arms does not presume we are a violent society, but like said before, willing to defend against violence, as well as tyrannical acts of our government, with arms, if necessary.

The sentences I included as "a better fit", IMO, to the Bolded in your post, seem to reflect a better description than what was used.
Like said, In My Opinion.

Thank you JB. You are very right. Mine was written in haste to respond to another point and not clearly thought through.

For chronic pain there are a variety of approaches that require discipline and those who are not willing to do it (want a pill for instant relief) won't do it. There is a company called The Great Courses and they have a DVD on dealing with Chronic Pain. It is quite well done and covers the variety of approaches now being used and why they work, and the degree to which they may and may not work.

Thundarstruck, it's getting out there. I was recently at a CE (Continuing Education) workshop on chronic pain and it was a central theme. Even us psychologists are getting the message.