Mid-power .45 Colt loads with Universal?

[Abert Rim]

A pal sent me some boolits cast in the Lee 452-300 RF mold to play with. They are about 322 grains lubed and gas checked.
I'd like to push them to 950-1,000 or so with Universal in Starline brass, seated to the rear crimp groove for an OAL of about 1.65 in the Ruger Bisley.
Hodgdon only shows 7.3 grains of Universal with a jacketed 300 at 700 fps for Colt SAA-strength guns. Linebaugh shows 11 grains of Unique at 998 with a 310 cast in the Ruger.
I know, buy a can of H-110 and give her hell, Bill. I don't wanna.
I am not finding data for Universal, heavy cast and Rugers at mid-range velocities. Can anyone help?

[sandog]

You are right, you won't see much in the mid range for Universal, only the milder loads.
I have a Ruger Flattop which is the smaller mid size frame, and those aren't meant for the heavy Ruger only loads.
They can handle so called "Tier II" loads up to 23,000.
Your Bisley is probably the large frame, so you have more leeway as far as pressures.

I want to work up an accurate milder load and will try from 7.5 to 9.0 grains of Universal and a 250 grain boolit.
For a heavier "woods" load ( Black Bear, Elk and Mtn. Lion around here) I could probably go 10 or 10.5 but don't want to push it.

I just bought some HS-6 and will try that up to 12.0 grains for a hotter "woods" load that will still be safe in my Flattop. I've heard (Bryan Pierce article with pressure data) that 13.0 of HS-6 is right at that 23,000 threshold to be safe in my mid frame Ruger.
Reading thru some old threads on this forum, I've heard a lot of guys say they like HS-6 for a mid power load.
Getting up over 1000 fps in velocity, I feel better trying a slower burning powder than Universal.
My Hornady book is a few years old now, there might be some new powders added, but my 8th Edition shows Unique at #26 on the burn chart, Universal is #30, and HS-6 is #34.
So you can use a bit more Universal that what is listed for Unique, and even more for the slower burning HS-6.

[Lloyd Smale]

A pal sent me some boolits cast in the Lee 452-300 RF mold to play with. They are about 322 grains lubed and gas checked.
I'd like to push them to 950-1,000 or so with Universal in Starline brass, seated to the rear crimp groove for an OAL of about 1.65 in the Ruger Bisley.
Hodgdon only shows 7.3 grains of Universal with a jacketed 300 at 700 fps for Colt SAA-strength guns. Linebaugh shows 11 grains of Unique at 998 with a 310 cast in the Ruger.
I know, buy a can of H-110 and give her hell, Bill. I don't wanna.
I am not finding data for Universal, heavy cast and Rugers at mid-range velocities. Can anyone help?

if your bisley is a large framed ruger you will have no problem with Johns load. Now I probably wouldn't shoot that load in my small framed 45 colt montado.

[sandog]

Here, there is some "Mid" power data, 10.0 grains is as high as he goes, for 1076 fps.
Universal isn't even listed for the Tier III Ruger only loads.
I'll let you know how mine show up on the chrono, but 10.0 grains is all I'll do in my mid frame.
I will try up to 12.0 with the HS-6.
https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazi...246partial.pdf

[Abert Rim]

Sandog, thanks a bunch. That's exactly the kind of "dope" I was looking for.

[sandog]

I bought another Ruger .45 today, a blued New Vaquero with the 7 1/2" barrel.
I thought it would simplify things to have both the midframe. That way I won't mix up hotter ammo from a large frame to the mid, and also I can switch grips, etc. (which I did already).
The 5 1/2" Flattop will be my "field" gun for woods and desert (with mid power range loads), and the long barreled fixed sight .45 is gonna be my range gun and plinker.

I didn't have time to load up my Universal and HS-6 loads this week, but tried some factory loads, HSM Cowboy loads with a 250 grain cast RNFP, and Winchester PDX JHP. The Flattop sure was easier to get hitting right on.

The Vaquero was hitting about 4 inches low, once I work up my own load, I'll be able to file the front sight down.

[Abert Rim]

Nice pair of capable sixguns! I had one of the Vaqueros with 7 1/2-inch barrel not long after they came out, and darn if it didn't shoot black-powder loads under the sooty old dimple-base 250-grain slugs that Remington used to sell. Only sixgun I ever owned that shot better was a Smith 25 in .45 Auto Rim.

[DougGuy]

That heavy of a boolit at 1000 is NOT a mid range load. You have to put some fire behind it to gain that kind of velocity, thus you will build plenty of Ruger Only pressure to get to 1000fps. You also run out of headroom real quick with fast powder. Not recommended for heavy for caliber loads. Can't download H110 but you can use 2400 or LilGun.

If you want midrange loads, use lighter boolits then you can employ all the HS6, Unique, Universal that you want to use.

Third, those heavies take a good bit of spin to stabilize, which is yet another thing that make them a poor choice for target velocities.

Generally speaking, if you notice the absence of load data for a certain powder in the heavier boolit weights, it is because it is not recommended. No load manual will tell you not to use X powder with Y boolit, they just leave out unsafe or questionable loads. You won't find ANY heavy boolit Unique loads published. You will only find handloaded data shared by individuals. You can't make magnum power with fast powder and heavy boolits. It just doesn't work. The laws of physics dictate that pressure will rise dangerously before magnum velocity is achieved.

[Rick Hodges]

I sure wouldn't consider 322 gr. 45 cal bullets and 1000fps mid range.

[sandog]

I'm guessing you were directing your advice to Abert Rim, as I am using 250 grain boolits.
I was trying to advise Abert to go with a slower burning powder for mid power loads, rather than Universal.
Maybe not as slow as H-110/296, but something in between.

Abert is talking about using a 322 grain at 1000. If he has a large frame Bisley ( I'm still not sure what Bisley he has) it should be able to handle it, but I am in agreement, Universal is a bit fast burning for that. Universal or Unique seems to build up pressure rapidly at the higher end charges.
I used a 335 grain Cast Performance in my large frame Bisley getting 1200 fps. But I used 21.0 grains of W296.
It wasn't a load that I shot a lot, but was my carry load when I lived in Grizzly country.




Myself, I only want to go slightly higher than a mild Cowboy load so as to have the brass seal better in the chamber.
Those mild Cowboy loads tend to blacken the case on one side.
Maybe 9 grains of Universal, or 10.0 grains of HS-6 will get me there, and result in less smoking up of the case, while still being pleasant to shoot, and safe in my mid frame .45's.

[bigted]

I carried a M-629 4 inch in Alaska loaded with 300+ grain magnum loads and I gotta say they are not a "plinker" load at 1050 FPS. 45 Colt at the same speed and weight loads will NOT be what I would call safe fun loads in anything other then the heavy frame Blackhawk revolvers. New Vaquero revolvers like I now have would be battered badly with these loads.

The old Colt was brought about (in my understanding) to kill runaway horses for cav troops AND to penetrate a horse to punish a hostile on the other side of the pony. The ORIGINAL 45 Colt loads were 40 grains of FINE blackpowder [3Fg] under a 255 grain lead bullet. These run 900 FPS +. Not a load that is considered "lite" by any means.

If 44 mag loads are on the menu, then my suggestion would be to either ensure enough revolver ( Ruger's large frame Blackhawk in the old Colt 45 round, or a 44 Mag revolver that is designed for these heavy loads in the first place) to handle these heavy loads.

I understand need for heavy revolvers loaded for heavy knockdown power loads, just ensure you use a heavy built revolver to shoot them ... please

[Abert Rim]

I was basing my discussion of midrange loads off of John Linebaugh's wonderful article on the .45 Colt. His heavy loads in .45 Colt tend to be 310-grain boolits at 1300 over 23.5 grains of H-110.
I am not interested in going there at this point. Just wanted to feel out the recoil and accuracy issues of the big Lee at 950-1,000. By Linebaugh's standards that is a midrange load. He also shows 11 grains of Unique under the 310 for 998 at 29,000 pressure. Pearce shows 10 grains of Universal under the RCBS 280-grain Keith giving 1076 at 20,000. I just loaded a sample of the big Lees over 9.0 of Universal.
My Bisley is the large-frame Blackhawk.

fullsizeoutput_1161 by ComeWatson, on Flickr

https://www.johnlinebaughcustomsixguns.com/writings

[DougGuy]

He also shows 11 grains of Unique under the 310 for 998 at 29,000 pressure.

That's the top end. Nothing midrange about it. This is what I was trying to explain earlier about heavier boolits and faster powders.

For the record, big frame 45s are rated 30kpsi. 44s are rated 36kpsi.

[bigted]

I'm guessing you were directing your advice to Abert Rim, as I am using 250 grain boolits.
I was trying to advise Abert to go with a slower burning powder for mid power loads, rather than Universal.
Maybe not as slow as H-110/296, but something in between.

Abert is talking about using a 322 grain at 1000. If he has a large frame Bisley ( I'm still not sure what Bisley he has) it should be able to handle it, but I am in agreement, Universal is a bit fast burning for that. Universal or Unique seems to build up pressure rapidly at the higher end charges.
I used a 335 grain Cast Performance in my large frame Bisley getting 1200 fps. But I used 21.0 grains of W296.
It wasn't a load that I shot a lot, but was my carry load when I lived in Grizzly country.




Myself, I only want to go slightly higher than a mild Cowboy load so as to have the brass seal better in the chamber.
Those mild Cowboy loads tend to blacken the case on one side.
Maybe 9 grains of Universal, or 10.0 grains of HS-6 will get me there, and result in less smoking up of the case, while still being pleasant to shoot, and safe in my mid frame .45's.

Good lookin rig there. Do the Bisley grips make heavy recoil more comfortable to withstand?

[Abert Rim]

Doug, I was basing my definition of midrange solely on velocity and not pressure. My "normal" load in .45 Colt is the Lee 255 flat point over 8 grains of Universal. Very pleasant in the large-frame Rugers.

[sandog]

Heavy recoil is a breeze with the Bisley. Never had any hand discomfort at all.
Those 335 grain loads in full recoil:

That Bisley had some work done, 7 1/2" barrel cut to 5 inches, action job and hammer jeweled, and a white outline and yellow front insert.
I sold it when I moved from Montana last year, as I don't need "Ruger Only" magnum level loads down here.
For more sane loads I much prefer these mid frame, 3 digit prefix sixguns built on the old .357 frame.
Lighter, trimmer, better handling and balance.
Both of mine will see only 900 fps. or so loads. But if I climb up a bit, there is forest in all directions (Northern Arizona) and quite a few Black Bears. That was my desire to carry some boolits like the 270 Keith @ 1000 fps.
They wouldn't be used regularly.

I like the feel and comfort of the Bisley even if the loads aren't heavy. I could, and very well might, switch my Flattop over to a Bisley grip frame. And perhaps keep the plow handle on the more traditional Vaquero but switch to the longer Super Blackhawk (round trigger guard, not square) grip frame, so my pinky isn't wandering around under the grip.

[bigted]

Yes my new Vaquero 45 Colt 4-5/8ths barrel wears a super Blackhawk square trigger guard grip frame. Same reason my second gen Colt SAA wears a Uberti 1860 grip frame ... my hands like the bit longer and beefier grip of the Super and 1860 grip frames.

Always wondered if I would agree with the Biseley grip frame ... might need to wind up with a Biseley grip frame to try out someday.

[Abert Rim]

Ted, if I still lived in Salem, I'd meet you at the Albany Gun Club and let you try mine.