Lead bullets, barrel wear and a big doubt

[nueces5]

We were having coffee in the range after burning powder, and in the talk came the wear of the guns.
We do not agree on whether the boolits make less wear than the FMJ.
I am on the side of those who believe that they produce less wear and tear. And I think this for two reasons.
First: the lead is softer than the brass that covers the FMJ.
Second: We generally use loads with less speed.
But the truth is that we also shoot a lot more than if we used FMJ. (there are so many loads to be tested!)
The doubt
Then one of the boys said that he had a pair of precision rifles that he did not use with boolits. Since always some lead remains in the barrel and affected the precision. I would believe that always a bit of Hoppes and core boy solve the problem, but I'm left doubt, you think?

[nun2kute]

My agreement would be closer to you than him, but if I was shooting precision I'd have the speedo pegged and probably wouldn't use boolits with it anyway. I'm pretty sure lead would help a barrel last a lot longer than copper/brass jackets.

[Lakehouse2012]

There will be many opinions on this topic, with far less data to back it up.... my opinion is that heat from powder burn, moisture from the air (over time) and corrosion from powder do far more to deteriorate a bore, than the bullets themselves. Well fit lead vs poorly fit copper (generally because manufacturers only size to the median caliber diameter) i would be on the side that copper wears a bore faster. Its a harder material and if not fit well, will create more friction during movement down the bore... my $0.02.

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[jmort]

I am of the opinion that cast lead bullets will not ever wear out a barrel as a general matter.
You can't go 4,000 fps, but for gereral purposes there is no practical limit.

[tomme boy]

I put together a Savage in 308win a few years ago. It had a Shilen SS selct match barrel. It was their top of the line barrel they offer. It was built as a target plinker. I shot it over 3 years and put over 7500 lead bullets through it.

So I was needing to move on and do something else for a target gun. I wanted to make sure there was some life left in the barrel. I sent it to Goodsteel on here to look it over. He called me and left a message he wanted to talk. I thought this is not good. So I called and he ask me the round count. After I told him what I shot he tells me that it has the same wear that a regular barrel would have after shooting about 1K rounds of jacketed. So he cleaned it and put a new crown on it as he said he did not like it. He said there was nothing wrong with it but he wanted to clean it up.

So, as long as you are careful to not get and kind of abrasive on the bullets they will last a LONG time. I also had a 22rf Browning pistol. It had well over 30K rounds through it. It shot great still. The only wear it had was there was a slight grove from where the built fed in to the chamber on the side wall of the chamber. This thing was used very hard and not kept in the greatest of condition. I was young and just wanted to blast rounds. It would still shoot about a 1" group at 50yds when I sold it.

[mattw]

I am of the opinion that cast lead bullets will not ever wear out a barrel as a general matter.
You can't go 4,000 fps, but for gereral purposes there is no practical limit.

Shooting some really overbore rifles, I would have to disagree with the above. Bringing the velocity way up is done by using some really nasty stick powders, the erosion caused by the powder, burning powder and I believe jacketed bullet kill the throats on things like 6mm/284 very quickly. Accuracy at 600+ yards starts to fall off around 1500 to 1600 rounds.

Now in small cartridge rifles this does not really seem to happen for thousands of rounds, if the barrel is well cared for and not overheated.

[GhostHawk]

Well there are exceptions to every rule.

But IMO there are a few prime points to consider.

A Jacketed are not lubricated, cast is. I think all other factors being equal this can make a difference.

B I agree with what was said above that most cast are shot at a slower speed. I think this can make a difference.

C If copper fouling was not an issue they would not have come up with new anti copper fouling powders.

Last, I do believe that speed kills, and some powders are not good. Lilgun as example. Flame cutting on frames of revolvers comes to mind. What does that do to the inside of your barrel?

Almost all factory Jacketed rounds are 2400 fps or better.
Most cast boolit shooters I know are perfectly happy with 800 to 2000 fps. That will make a difference on wear.

Not being a Metalurgist I can't prove most of the above. But it is what I think. And as such is worth exactly what you think it is.

You all have yourself a fine morning and enjoy this summer weather.

[MostlyLeverGuns]

I believe HEAT is the primary enemy of barrel, given proper protection from weather/humidity/whatever. Mostly boolits use smaller powder charges at lower pressures creating less heat. Friction due to bullet speed and hardness moving through the bore also creates heat, again the lubricated lead slug is lower than the bare copper surface. Copper fouling is a result of speed, copper jacketed bullets shot at 1400-1800fps show very little signs of 'coppering', mostly due to bore roughness. Heat 'CORROSION', burning of the steel is why the big cases actually do BURN up barrels. Erosion, wearing from abrasives is much less of a problem. Coatings of wax, moly, 'other' that coat the barrel interior do help reduce heat through reducing friction. I believe they also lay down a film that helps protect the barrel from the heat corrosion. A 223 lasts much longer than a 220 Swift, even with jacketed bullets, it is the heat burning steel. Lead bullets aren't run in front of huge powder charges at high pressure, saving barrels. The smaller the powder charge, the slower the rate of fire, the slower a barrel will wear.

[Rich/WIS]

Heat is an issue, although not really applicable to our shooting it doesn't take many rounds through a MG to get the barrel too hot to handle. Even a semi fired rapidly will heat well past the point where it will burn you badly. In my experience with bolt guns 5-10 rounds of jacketed fired over a minute or two and you will learn quickly not to grab the barrel. On the other hand the same number of moderate cast loads will leave a barrel warm, but usually not hot enough to burn.

[KCSO]

In 60 years of shooting I have never seen a barrel worn out by shooting cast bullets. I had a 1911 that went over 10,000 rounds of cast and shot as good as it did when new. I got a hold of a 22 BSA club gun that had been used sine the 1930's and after cleaning the bore looked and shot perfect. Wire brush cleaning and neglect cause way more damage and wear then shooting sensible cast loads.

[Mytmousemalibu]

I can say with absolute certainty that I have worn out a pistol barrel. My custom built M&P race gun in 9mm was my USPSA open gun for about 4yrs. When i built the gun it got a KKM Precision 9mm barrel that I had Ti nitrided (exterior finish only) that had been in the gun from day one. I handloaded all the ammo for it. After 50,000+rds it finally put it's hat on the rack. It won't group any better than about 6" at 15yrds now and it was a tack driver. I slugged the bore and the bullet barely had any rifling engraved into it though it looks okay. Most of the life of the barrel it was fed Berry's plated bullets and about 2000 Precision Delta jacketed. No cast or coated through this gun, the popple holes and compensator will scavenge lead off the bullets and foul the comp up and I don't want to breathe atomized lead. I would consider what little jacketed that I shot as negligible in the life of the barrel. The Berry's are closer to cast that jacketed. Yes they are copper plated but not as ridged as an actual jacket. The loads I ran are extremely hot as far as 9mm goes, well beyond SAAMI spec. It varied a little over the life of the barrel but generally 124gr bullets at 1475fps and some 115gr around 1520fps with chamber pressure estimation via Quickload to be around 45,000psi and up to 50,000psi. More akin to .357 in performance than 9mm. Par for the course in USPSA Open Division. I'm not at all disappointed in the barrel life, it held up quite well. My Production / Carry optics gun has about 20,000 rds on it which are almost exclusively Blue Bullets coated lead and much more modest load performance. It still looks great, still going strong.

[country gent]

I to believe most wear comes from powders and charge weights there of. Once a barrel smooths up the wear slows way down from the bullet. Once the bullet is engraved by the leade friction forces drop a lot. ( even slug a barrel in a presss? once the bullet engraves it goes through easily unless there are tight spots in it). A high round count barrel also shows this effect in that it will have a taper shot into it. Even with jacketed bullets and high counts the barrels rifling shows sharp square corners not rounded off. ( I have seen rifling with the trailing corner rounded from high counts of paper patched bullets) What you do see a lot of in high intensity rounds is the dry cracked throats and leades from powder blasting and heat erosion. this extends throats leades making the bullet jump excessive.

Another part of this is small bores that use large charges of powder exhibit faster barrel wear than the "milder" rounds in the same caliber. A 22 hornet lasts a long time a 220 swift loaded to full house may go 3000 rds. My coarse gun in 243 win with 1-7 barrel was normally good for around 2500 rds. Big charges of slow burning powders and heavy for caliber bullets,

Some case designs lend them selves to extending barrel life also. A shoulder neck combination that keeps the first hit of powder gasses and unburnt powder inside the neck, straighter cases and the longer neck produce a venture effect that may "funnel" this into the center of the bore away from the edges. Look at the original barrel burner the 220 swift long body taper shoulder angle and med length neck. CAses stretch and flow a lot faster and the throats burnt out at alarming rates

[Thumbcocker]

I read about Ruger standard model .22's in South Africa that went over 100,000 rounds.

[reddog81]

Try sizing a jacketed bullet down .001 and then try sizing a lead bullet down .003. Your arm will wear out much quicker with the jacketed bullet. Anyone who thinks the lead bullet will wear out a barrel faster, everything else being equal, shouldn't be listened to.

With large caliber rifles worse case scenario is the the throat erosion would be the same, with most the damage resulting from the heat of the powder blast.

[Mytmousemalibu]

I read about Ruger standard model .22's in South Africa that went over 100,000 rounds.

I own a S&W 617, (10rd 22lr) that was owned by a local range till a guy took his life with it at said range. Between an employee that had a fondness for it and its past 2 owners before me and rental rack time, rough estimate is the round count is probably 300,000rds give or take. Its not in bad shape, pretty decent actually but you can tell its had a lot of time on it. The action is absolutely glass smooth and still very accurate. The 22LR is pretty gentle on guns so I can believe some ridiculous numbers.

[Winger Ed.]

This was the subject of a article in a old Lyman book.
Most barrels get condemned from the heat that causes throat erosion, not wear of the rifling past the throat.
With jacketed ammo at factory level pressures, 5,000 rounds is a normal expectation before accuracy falls off.
Closer to 2,000 with a barn burning round like a .220 Swift.

For their test:
They took a new rifle, I think a Win. model 70, in a .30 cal. and fired it 40,000 rounds with cast.
Then ground off the top of the chamber to measure for wear, and inspect for throat erosion.

They found 'no measurable wear'.


For throat eroded barrels, seating the boolit farther out will sometimes get back decent accuracy.

There used to be a old gunsmith here that did a lot of custom barrel work for REAL! serious shooters.
When they got a new barrel, he'd re-sell the one that was pulled off.

For about 1/3 the price of a new premium bull barrel, he'd cut about a inch off the old one,
then rechamber, thread, and install it for you.
He never had any complaints from guys that fancied themselves as redneck bench rest shooters.

[Larry Gibson]

Anyone who thinks the lead bullet will wear out a barrel faster, everything else being equal, shouldn't be listened to.

Ah but that is a pretty bold statement.....perhaps not "faster" but barrels can be worn out (shot out, etc.) regardless of the type of bullet used.

Fact is it is the amount of heat, the duration of the heat and the pressure of each round fired that causes throat erosion or barrels to shoot out. Has nothing to do with the hardness of the bullet. Also, the rate of fire (has to do with the amount of heat of the barrel during firing) has a great effect on barrel life. Cast bullet loads as most use just do not heat up the barrel as fast because the reduced loads do not generate as much heat.

In rifles steel jacketed, copper jacketed and lead bullets will wear out (shoot out) barrels fairly evenly if the above factors are the same. Reduced loads using smaller amounts of faster burning powder, which is the kind of load mostly used with cast bullets, produce a lot less heat at a shorter duration time of heat and at a much lower pressure. That is why barrels last longer with the reduced load type of cast bullet loads.

Having shot out numerous barrels over the years I have found given the same load and rate of fire it doesn't matter what the bullet type is. The fact is the throats will erode (wear) the same. For example; the last 3+ years I have put over 3,000 rounds through my 30x60 XCB rifle. Those have only been with cast bullets with the greater majority being the NOE 30 XCB 310-165-FN. Also the vast majority, probably 99%, have been with AA4350 loads generating 47 - 52,000 psi (measured, not guestimated). Using a bore scope I can see the throat erosion is very similar to what my match .308W and 30-06 barrels exhibited at the same round count (with jacketed bullet match loads).

[castalott]

I remember an article where a shooter wore a barrel until it wouldn't group. Then he set it back 2 inches or so to remove the worn throat. The rechambered job shot very well again...

The hard steel barrels of centerfire combined with the ultra low speed poofer loads I shoot makes for long barrel life. 4 grains of some pistol powder combined with a 130gr or so bullet makes little heat or wear. I jokingly tell everyone that the trigger will wear off before the barrel wears out.

Now improper use of a cleaning rod can ruin a barrel in one or two sessions. I have bought milsurps with pristine bores except for the last 1/8 inch where the off center cleaning rod wore the crown.

YMMV

[country gent]

Some matches are harder on a rifle than others also due to coarse of fire in the match. One that comes to mind is The rattle battle team match curing CMP?DCM week of the Nationals. Roughly 120 rds in 40-45 mins. starting at 600 yds and moving down to 200 yds. The lie command is Load and be ready 1 min to fire as many rounds as possible. Double timed to next line 1 min prep and load and be ready. When I shot it with the State team using M1A in 308 when finished the barrel would raise blisters if touched. Seen Garands with the rear handguard smoking from the heat. THis was harder than firing several coarse matches.

[BudRow]

As far as bullet friction is concerned I believe that a lead/tin boolit has an almost neglectable affect on barrel wear. After all babbitt alloy is lead/tin in different proportions and is used as bearing material. I am amazed that automotive crank and rod bearings can last for many thousands of miles.