Barreling an old Savage 110 for a "410 shotgun"

[megasupermagnum]

I've kind of been off and on again wanting a savage 220, 20 gauge slug gun just for target shooting and possibly hunting. I've been reloading shotgun slugs from mild to wild for many years, and am looking for something more mild. I also have a Savage 110L, built about 1963, just sitting in the closet. I shot the barrel out beyond interesting accuracy, and never was crazy about the 6mm Remington cartridge it's chambered for, so never fixed it. For whatever reason the thought popped into my head, why not a 410 slug gun? A 410 rim is about the same size as a 300 win mag, so my bolt should work with just enlarging the face. I could care less if it doesn't feed, I'd rather just use it as a single shot. It looks like I've got a few options with 410. Chambered for a case 2.5" long, I could shoot either 2 1/2" 410 plastic or paper hulls, 2.45" 410 brass shells, or even 444 marlin brass.

The ID of a 410 brass case is listed as .433". Because of this, I think it would be great with a 44 caliber barrel, and reloaded with 44 mag dies and bullets. I have to imagine a 2 1/2" case full of FFg blackpowder and a 300+ grain bullet is nothing to sneeze at. Loaded with smokeless to 444 marlin levels, I could have the absolute best shotgun zone legal "slug gun" there is. Loaded down with a keith bullet to 1000 fps or so, I can't imagine a better slug gun for a kid.

A left hand savage 220 is $500, maybe a bit more with tax. I'm thinking I could re-barrel this 110L for about half that. Mine already has a nice laminate stock, well bedded too. Mine also has a great 2 pound, crisp trigger. Plus there is no way a 20 gauge slug gun with no throat could ever come close to the accuracy of what is essentially a rifle, with a proper throat. What do you guys think? Is there any reason an old style (pre barrel nut) Savage can't work with a rimmed cartridge besides feeding from the magazine?

Before anyone asks, MN regulations state a "shotgun shooting single projectile" for big game in my area. The barrel will be stamped .410 2 1/2" slug. The gun will be chambered, and could safely shoot .410 shot shells. There is no law saying you can't use brass cases for a slug gun.

[richhodg66]

Seems like an odd project, but I don't see where it wouldn't work, and you're probably right, it should shoot much better than most slug guns.

Was that an original factory rifle chambered in 6mm? I'm kind of a fan of the 6mm, but it seems few chambered rifles in it in favor of the .243.

[Texas by God]

Ditto on the barrel question- Savage make? I consider the 6mm better than the .243 that I have two of....

[Zingger]

If you are able to- change the bolt face to the Magnum, if it is indeed that close. Most any 'smith will have a barrel vise and appropriate action wrench. Would Shaw build a barrel for it? I look forward to an update when it gets done!

[megasupermagnum]

There is no doubt 6mm remington is better than 243 Winchester. It's better in every single way. It was not a factory barrel, it was made by some guy named "Doak Ray". I never found any info on who that is.

While I consider 6mm Remington to be the best factory offering 6mm, I am plain underwhelmed with all 6mm rounds. They are touchy at best with cast bullets, with very few mold options. Whether it be a 6mm Remington, 243 Winchester, 6x47 Lapua, 6mm creedmoor, etc. They are at their best pushed to the max with jacketed bullets for long range shooting. They really excel in that purpose, however, shooting extreme long range competitions is not something I enjoy at all.

[megasupermagnum]

As for the bolt face, I'm not sure a new bolt head will fit on my old pre-'64 style bolt.

The 300 win mag I'm seeing .532" for the case head. For .410 shotgun I'm seeing anywhere from .528 to .535", so pretty close.

[Markopolo]

Amen MSM... I gave up all my stuff in 6mm years ago for that very reason. I decided if it won’t shoot Cast well. Then down the road it goes...

Now a 410.. that is interesting my friend.. I will be watching with great interest as you look into it... almost lost me with the whole left handed thing, but I am hooked.. count me subscribed!!!

Marko

[megasupermagnum]

If you are able to- change the bolt face to the Magnum, if it is indeed that close. Most any 'smith will have a barrel vise and appropriate action wrench. Would Shaw build a barrel for it? I look forward to an update when it gets done!

I have not looked hard at my options yet, but green mountain has a 1:20" twist 44 caliber (assuming a .430" groove?) barrel blank that would work fine. I would imagine any gunsmith capable of swapping a barrel on a rifle like a Remington 700, Winchester 70, etc. should have no problem.

[megasupermagnum]

@Markopolo, I can shoot a right handed bolt action just fine, but a left handed model is a lot less fuss. To throw you off even more, I've always been right handed, I've always been left-eye dominant, and I've always shot left handed. I do practice, and am reasonable proficient shooting right handed as well.

[Markopolo]

You know MSM, folks used to think that lefties were possessed or something.. of course we know that to be.......

[country gent]

I would really crunch some numbers on the barrel shank. Minimum thread dia chambers max dia any reliefs or cuts. See what the shanks wall thickness will be with this new chambering. For a .410 chambering / rifle a 40 cal barrel blank might be a better choice, something in the 1-18 - 1 -20 twist range. Another thing to do is decide if plastic hulks or all brass shells are to be used ( plastic hulls are thicker walls than brass) and have the reamer ground accordingly. You might look at 40-65 brass or if you want closer to 2 1/2" sized down 45-90 ( 2.4 long when sized down to 40 cal may grow to 2.450 length). It is an interesting project to contemplate

[megasupermagnum]

My current barrel has an OD of 1.26" at the shank. I'm not sure what the chamber diameter will be exactly, but it will be ballpark .400" of wall thickness. That seems plenty for me, especially in a gun that is chambered for some large cases, 300 win mag, 450 bushmaster, I think even 375 ruger. The taper of the barrel could be just about anything, as I'm probably going to have to modify the stock anyway. My current barrel has an aggressive taper. I'm not sure a 40 caliber barrel would be best, but I am considering a 416. I still think a 44 would be best, as 410 magtec brass should be able to hold a 44 caliber bullet. Also, I should be able to use 444 marlin brass, which of course uses 44 bullets. If I went to a 416 barrel, I would be stuck with custom RMC brass.

The whole purpose of this is to also remain MN shotgun zone legal as well, and I feel even the worst conservation officer would have a hard time arguing if I'm shooting a brass case stamped .410 right on it.

[Markopolo]

I looked at this as I have different makes of 410 brass shells, and lots of 44 cal boolits..

Here is the lee 310


And a MagTec 410 brass shell...


And a Alcan all brass 410


Seems like might be better to get a decent 45lc Boolit and size it down a bit rather then a bigger 44mag Boolit. The 44’s sized even as cast is too loose in the brass cases... I do have a few 45 Boolit Moulds, but nothing Cast to try...

Marko

[megasupermagnum]

Would you mind measuring the OD of the magtech brass please? I was hoping I could use something like a 44 magnum sizer to size just the "neck" section.

Magtech is listed as an ID of .433". If your's are fired cases, it shouldn't be hard to size for .431" ish bullets.

[Markopolo]

Brand new ones are .461.. fired they run .465 in mine... one other thing.. the magtec is length is 2.34, I measured several new ones to be sure. . the Alcan are longer, a full 2.5... you could also do 303’s if you want a cheaper supply of brass, but they are shorter. And there is the headstamp issue.

I wish I had a set of dies for a 444 to see how they size, but I dunna.. I do have 44 mag dies, carbide, won’t be able to full length I dont think, but I could give it a shot if you want.

[megasupermagnum]

Ok, I'll have to check, but I think a 44 mag sizer should be about .450" or so. If .440" is the ID of a new case, resizing with 44 mag dies should bring the ID to .429. If .440" is a fired case, that will bring it to .425". That should be in the ball park, sizing down .010" is fairly normal for handguns, .011"-.015" shouldn't be much of a stretch.

Being as I will only be using these in one gun, and a bolt action at that, pressures will not be too high, and no headspace to stretch, I think I can get away without full length sizing. The length doesn't bother me too much. I'd rather cases be right at 2.48", but you can't have anything. A custom bullet with a .160"-.180" front driving band to bridge the gap is just another excuse for a new mold. Magtech is available, and affordable (compared to RMC). I wish starline would make shotgun brass.

I'm half tempted to just chamber it in 444 marlin. I could get away with it if there was such a thing as a 2" 410 shell. Unfortunately, if there ever was, there is not now. At least with a 2 1/2" chamber I can argue that it is in fact a legal "shotgun" slug gun.

[megasupermagnum]

I may have located another parent case. 405 Winchester has about the same diameter web as 410 shotgun, and just a little smaller than 444 marlin. The rim is too large, and would have to be turned down to fit. Other than that, it looks like it should fire form, and fit a 44 caliber bullet. Being 2.580" long, 405 Winchester could then be trimmed to a perfect size.

[Markopolo]

Nice.. then you get the length you want without compromise... every bit of length will help with BP... I stuff mine...

[Jedman]

Up until 4 years ago Ohio had regulations that only allowed shotguns, muzzleloaders and centerfire pistols .357 and larger for our deer gun season. Myself and another member on this forum decided to make our own fully rifled 410 slug guns for deer hunting. Ohio does have a silly rule that does NOT allow metallic shotshell cases so we were forced to work with plastic hulls for our project.

His gun was a H&R handi rifle in 444 Marlin and all we did was open up the diameter of the rim cut on the barrel face to work with the 410 case and was still able to shoot 444 without problem.
To make the ammo he used WW AA 410 HS 2-1/2" cases and I made a die that when you pressed the plastic case into it you could run a straight chucking reamer into the hull and ream the inside of the hull so 44 cal. Bullets would fit and still chamber in the unmodified 444 chamber except for shortening the 410 hull approx. 1/4". He was able to load heavyweight cast bullets on top of I 3031 and get ballistics that exceeded 44 magnum and the plastic hulls did not fail ! The weak link was the 209 primers, when you reached a level of pressure that was to much the center part of the primer would sepparate and fall apart. Never had any gas blow out of the gun though.
My slug gun I built was a Mossberg M500 410 that I bought a 44 cal. Blank from Numrich and turned it to fit the reciever and cut back the breech face to allow a barrel extension to cut the bolt locking lug recess and chambered it with a strait reamer that was a title oversize .484 dia. So the ammo would chamber easily. I used cheap Cheddite 2 1/2" plastic hulls and did not inside ream them. I was able to push a .430 diameter bullet into the hull and the shell ended up slightly bigger diameter at the front then the back. My gun chambered and ran smooth with these shells and shot 1 1/2"" groups at 100 yards with a 4 X scope. I killed a buck the first year I built it and it was a good deer gun. The very next year Ohio allowed some strait walled rifle cartridges in rifles with a 3 shot maximum and I have rifles that are now legal for deer hunting and ended up selling the Mossberg last year to a guy in Michigan who was fascinated by it and was impressed that the ammo could be loaded by hand with a just a Lee powder scoup and a tool I made for tapering the plastic case mouth over the bullet nose by spinning it with a hand drill.

So I would say you could make a rifled 410 from your Savage 110. I know of people who have used the all brass Magtec 410 hulls and loaded 45 cal. ( .452 ) bullets as the brass cases a have thin walls and are larger inside and shot them from rifled guns chambered for 410 / 45 Colt.

If you have a lathe I believe you could open the bolt face to work with the rim on a 410 case without the expense of replacing it with one for a belted magnum round.

You have many possibilities.

Jedman

[megasupermagnum]

I definitely don't want to mess with plastic cases. I've got a lot of "shotgun zone" legal guns, including rifled shotguns, a muzzle loader capable of a 200 yard shot, handguns. I never wanted them, but I do have access to rifles with a pistol grip like a TC encore too. Just making a rifled shotgun isn't the ultimate goal.

It's just one of those, I don't really need it, but want it, and to justify, I also want it to be shotgun zone legal.

There is nothing written that says you can't use a brass case shotgun shell in MN. Still, I just got off the phone with the DNR and was asking for a specific definition on what a "shotgun with slugs" is. To reduce confusion, I asked about a 410/45 colt shotgun, is there any reason I couldn't use 45 colt ammo in that gun. The first person thought it was fine, but transferred me to someone that would know for sure. I left a message, and am waiting for the response.

There is a few different ways i could go with this. Speaking of the 45/410 (judge), I notice the 45 colt has a body of .480", while .410 is listed as .446". That's a huge jump. I've shot a judge revolver before, and I hadn't noticed that much slop at the time. It is interesting to know a jump that large can work.

Between 410, 444 marlin, and 405 wcf brass (nobody currently makes it either), the 444 marlin is the cheapest by a large margin. I've got a lot of time to think about it, but I do think a 44 caliber is the way to go. RMC is incredibly expensive, and that is only way to do a 416. I don't like the idea of an oversize chamber for the 45 calibers.