Static electricity and black powder

[KeithL]

I have read that a powder dispenser for black powder should not have a plastic hopper. Something like a Lyman 55 classic with an aluminum hopper is needed because of the risk of static electricity causing a spark. However, black powder is now packaged in a plastic container. I guess static electricity isn't a threat? I was dubious of the concept and am more so now.

[Baja_Traveler]

Static setting off black powder is an old wives tale that has been completely disproved. There is a video out there with a ton of experiments trying to get black powder to ignite using static and piezoelectric spark. I think the end supposition was that the graphite coating on the BP sends the electrical current around the grain, not through it. I've been using a Redding measure with plastic hopper for decades here in the dry south west and never have seen any static buildup at all.

[John Boy]

Before the lawyers started .... Old Lyman powder chargers had plastic hoppers and same for B&M

[BrentD]

There is static electricity and then there is really static electricity. The former from plastic hoppers and funnels is not worth working about, but the later, from lightning bolts might be another matter. You may not want to reload outside in a good thunderstorm. Just sayin'...

[indian joe]

There is static electricity and then there is really static electricity. The former from plastic hoppers and funnels is not worth working about, but the later, from lightning bolts might be another matter. You may not want to reload outside in a good thunderstorm. Just sayin'...

My approach to this is its too late afterwards -
Static electricity burns combine harvesters all over the Aussie wheat belt every year (Lupin and bean harvesting the main cause) to the extent it has become extremely difficult and expensive to insure against it. I have seen a couple of truly amazing light shows around machines left running at idle in the night - cant see them big blue sparks in the daytime but they there!!

Experts tell us that static is a cold spark - maybe - how cold tho?

[dangitgriff]

Static electricity can build up on plastic surfaces and paper in levels exceeding 10,000 volts. The plastic powder hoppers, powder jugs and powder funnels all use conductive anti-static compounds in their make-up to reduce static discharge.
Additionally, anti-static mats are available to cover the surface of your loading bench. They have a metal snap on them that allows you to attach a grounding wire to an appropriate ground connection, usually the safety ground on a nearby outlet.
If you store your powder in a metal cabinet, it would be a good idea to attach a grounding wire to it just to be safe. At my job, we store flammable products in grounded safety cabinets.
—Griff

[Wayne Smith]

The research concluded that there is plenty of power to light powder but the elapsed time is too short for ignition.

[KCSO]

Dust will ignite from static. As long as the powder doesn't have a concentration of dust in it it won't ignite. If you take a can with a lid and install a spark plug and cover the plug with say flour and spark it you get nothing. If you shake it up to get a dust and air mixture and spark it it goes boom. Same with Black powder if you get enough dust it will go. We did this at Upper Missouri with Doc testing this out we ran a taser into a pile of black powder and no go but if we ground some up and put it in the dust can we got a boom. I have an OLD Lyman Ideal measure marked for black and smokless powder and it's cast iron and brass. But I don't use it anymore as I have better measures.

[waksupi]

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_...ks/sparks.html

[Bent Ramrod]

There is a proprietary conductive plastic marketed by 3M under the trade name “Velostat.”

We had a Shoe Tester at work which determined the resistance of their conductive soles. They needed regular monitoring, since walking on the ground would coat them with dirt, compromising the conductivity. The wearer would then begin to build up a static charge in the course of moving around while working.

I checked an empty Swiss 1-1/2Fg container on our tester and it was conductive; obviously made of Velostat or a similar formula. A round Hodgdon plastic jar that formerly contained smokeless powder failed the test; no conductivity whatsoever.

I retired before I got a chance to test an Olde Eynsford plastic bottle, but wouldn’t be surprised if it was conductive as well.

As mentioned, static is a surface phenomenon. The more surface (water droplets in a rainstorm, dust in a grain elevator, particulates in a volcanic eruption) the more static, and the more energy available to initiate sensitive materials. Such excess surface generally isn’t available at the end user level. If we had a continuous flow of powder in a constantly running loading machine, draining the static via a ground wire would be standard safety engineering. Using a pound of powder at a loading session, there aren’t enough particles for static buildup to be a concern. I would think that the main reason for the antistatic plastic powder containers would be the automated filling of hundreds at a time at the factory, rather than the occasional emptying of one by the average reloader.

We don’t need to ground the spout when we fill our tanks at the gas station; not enough material to generate enough static to be dangerous. However, the guy with the tanker that fills the station tanks has to take grounding into consideration. Ten thousand gallons holds much more static than twenty gallons does, and a spark that size could easily start a fire.

[indian joe]

Interesting thread !
I think many ifs and buts to this question but it comes back around mostly to the ignition temperature required to ignite Blackpowder.
I attempted a test burn of a sample last winter - cold, damp, an updraft current - I touched three burning matches on the powder pile in sucession and it didnt catch - the cold air and a little upfdraft - just not hot enough on the bottom side to do it - do the same test in summer and you would get instantaneous ignition - in the end I used the gas stove lighter.
The fact that scientists have told us that static is no worry - is still no excuse for carelessness or foolishness .

[Dieselhorses]

Interesting thread !
I think many ifs and buts to this question but it comes back around mostly to the ignition temperature required to ignite Blackpowder.
I attempted a test burn of a sample last winter - cold, damp, an updraft current - I touched three burning matches on the powder pile in sucession and it didnt catch - the cold air and a little upfdraft - just not hot enough on the bottom side to do it - do the same test in summer and you would get instantaneous ignition - in the end I used the gas stove lighter.
The fact that scientists have told us that static is no worry - is still no excuse for carelessness or foolishness .

As far as sulfur content is concerned, wouldn't a lower sulfur content in BP make it more susceptible to static electricity?

[woodbutcher]

"Dust goes boom"with spark.Have seen that warning on containers of non dairy coffee lightner too.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[indian joe]

As far as sulfur content is concerned, wouldn't a lower sulfur content in BP make it more susceptible to static electricity?

Technically yes I spose ---sulphur lowers the ignition temperature

[indian joe]

"Dust goes boom"with spark.Have seen that warning on containers of non dairy coffee lightner too.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

I emptied 1.5 kilos of meal dust out of the mill a couple hours ago ----did I feel nervous? no - was I careful? hell yeah ...........cotton clothes, no steel utensils, no live electric anywhere close ....... I give that stuff the respect it deserves cuz if it goes you gonna call the undertaker not the ambulance

[bangerjim]

Some of the worst explosions in history have been in grain elevators filled with grain dust! I used to sell large blow-out panels that would be the sacrificial member of a grain elevator or grain car if a static-caused explosion happened. The panel would seal everything from the outside environment, yet be thin enough to give way if an ignition happened....saving the structure from massive damage.

Anything in a fine dust format can ignite if the mix of air and particles is just right. There are published ratios of LEL (lower explosive limits) of various dusts and items. I have watched the videos on the net of someone trying to ignite black powder with a spark static electric generator and nothing happened!

The chances of ignition are very slim..................just follow common sense and reasonable rules.

banger

[georgerkahn]

In an attempt to attenuate static-charged powder clinging to plastic hopper, and increased variations in dumped charges, I took the effort of pulling the grounding pin of a standard (U.S.) 3-prong plug; soldering the end of a coil of copper wire to it, and then after plugging this prong into the ground hole in a female duplex receptacle (aka, "electric outlet") I ran the wire up along my loading gear (Dillon 550b; Lyman All Americans), fastening BARE copper to presses bottom, and continuing to end with a seven or eight inch section I feed thru the hole atop each measure. I reckon my set-up is as "grounded" as one could get.
Would a procedure as this not attenuate/suppress/prevent static electricity sparks and the like with all -- including black -- powder? Just being curious george...

[Bent Ramrod]

I’m no electrician, but I never saw a grounding setup like yours, George. Wouldn’t there be occasional inductive effects in the ground wire from fluctuations in the live ones?

All the grounding at the worksites I was at was accomplished the same way. The machine or device in question was attached by a flat braided copper cable to an iron rod pounded into the ground outside the building. IIRC, the rod went down about ten feet. An electrician checked the resistance of the setups once every month or so. Of course, these were much more sensitive materials in much larger quantities than the average reloader uses.

Indian Joe makes a good point—nothing beats prudent practice, no matter what the science says. We wore cotton coveralls that were sprayed with an antistatic fire retardant. Every time they went through the laundry, they had to be resprayed. This got pretty costly, so somebody got us Kevlar clothes, which were naturally fire retardant. The static buildup on those was tremendous, so they were quickly dropped. Then they found a Kevlar cloth that had carbon fibers woven through it. Testing showed a great improvement: much less static buildup than the pure Kevlar, but still a little more than the original sprayed cotton.

We had people who presented papers on electrostatic initiation at international symposia, and they were asked if the carbon fiber Kevlar was good enough to wear in place of the original sprayed cotton. Not a single one of them would stick their neck out and give a definitive yes or no answer. Nobody knew better than they did that reality doesn’t always produce laboratory-grade results. We wore the modified a Kevlar, and nothing untoward happened, so apparently it was good enough. Twenty more years with no problems ought to prove it, I would guess.

[Tom Trevor]

One might also wipe the powder measure with a dryer anti static sheet before each use? I have red this on other forums.

[Winger Ed.]

Static setting off black powder is an old wives tale that has been completely disproved.

Over the years, I've learned that the truth doesn't stand a chance against a good myth.

I've found gun stores that sell all the powders you can think of, except single F cannon powder-
Because its too unstable.