Jacketed vs cast for large game.

[Bazoo]

What are the advantages, if any, to using jacketed bullets as opposed to cast,against larger than deer sized game in slower cartridges such as the 30/30? They would gain little if any in velocity, what about penetration?

For conversation sake, let's say they were cast from Lyman #2 but with a soft lead tip. Would that resultant bullet be the equal of a jacketed bullet of the same weight, traveling at the same velocity?

Conversely, are there any advantages to using cast over jacketed?

What about larger bore cartridges in the same velocity range, such as 35 Remington and 444 marlin?

[bmortell]

maybe getting good ballistic coefficient and expansion at the same time would be harder? but that only matters if you hunt long distance.

for expansion I don't think its worth comparing cause unless your talking about fancy hype bullets that turn into some crazy geometric thing, any normal type mushroom could be recreated with lead alloys and testing.

for cast advantage and pentration, the best thing I like about cast is its very efficient at getting weight per length. in my 30cal projectiles a 165gr nosler bt measures 1.290, while my now used cast boolit measures 1.175 but weights a solid 226gr. so the nosler has 12.8gr per 1/10th" while the cast gets 19.2gr per 1/10th". 12.8 divided by 19.2 is .66666forever, so my cast gets the 'Buy 2 Get 1 free deal' in the mass department. which is significant and I think its safe to say it will penetrate more. even if a jacketed had the same external dimensions copper just isn't as dense and wont get the same mass unless its filled with something denser than lead to compensate.

[Norske]

When in a ground blind during outfitted black bear hunts, I mix my 45-70 bullet types. The first two out of the magazine are simple 400 gr jacketed Remington CoreLoks (very soft expandable jacketed bullet), the third is a cast 400 gr semi wadcutter, which will penetrate a black bear end-to-end. The last two are Buffalo Bore because things aren't going good at this point, and I'm on the ground with the angry bear.

[waksupi]

I have found I get quicker kills with cast. This may be because of the wide meplat, more than anything else.

[elk hunter]

In low velocity rounds like the venerable 30-30 there probably isn't any practical difference if the cast bullet will expand or has a large meplat to transfer energy. In general plain cast bullets can't compete with jacketed at higher velocities as the cast will tend to slip and not rotate in modern shallow groove rifling if driven too fast. Higher velocities are possible if the cast bullet is sufficiently hardened but unless they are some sort of composite combination of hard base and soft nose they don't expand and if very hard will shatter if they hit bone, but that type of bullet is more difficult to make. I've taken a bit of big game including large Mule Deer, Elk, Kudu and one Cape Buffalo with cast bullets but always with larger calibers. The only semi-failure I've had was a very large Mule Deer shot at close range with a 400 grain round nose cast of wheel weight lead out of my Sharps 45-70. The bullet struck the large upper front leg bone shattering the bone and the bullet. The deer went less than 30 yards and went down but I had to finish him with another round. Will I continue to use cast bullets for hunting, yes but I'll still use jacketed bullets in my higher velocity rifles. Your experience may differ from mine.

[Markopolo]

I am with Waksupi...

[Shawlerbrook]

I couldn’t agree more with elk hunter’s thesis.

[Bigslug]

There's a reason the African pros keep nonexpanding solids around - they can visualize a straight line through an animal and put a hole in a vital organ, spinal column, supporting leg, or any combination of the three with little regard for how much rippling muscle happens to be in the way, or what angle you're given to shoot from.

There's a lot less mystery to them. There is no question of "good for broadside / insufficient for frontal". There's also no question of "expands and stops shallow at close range / might or might not at long range". They make a hole that's a little bigger than caliber. Where that hole goes and what it does is all on the shooter.

My tinkering with .45 ACP suggests that shifting from a soft core, jacketed HP duty load to a hard alloy of same weight, speed, and essentially the same starting profile can triple the penetration capability of the round (from three milk jugs full of water to nine in my case).

My thought on this argument is that a shot that completely transects the boiler room, and reliably exits will result in a fairly rapidly dead game animal. A bullet with a higher possibility of stopping within the animal has a higher chance of not reaching something important.

And all that said, all jacketed are not created equal, and neither are all cast. Then you have monometal expanders like Barnes that cut like a 1.5X original caliber archery broadhead and penetrate like crazy. Lotta golf clubs you can make this putt with.

[Larry Gibson]

What are the advantages, if any, to using jacketed bullets as opposed to cast,against larger than deer sized game in slower cartridges such as the 30/30? They would gain little if any in velocity, what about penetration?

For conversation sake, let's say they were cast from Lyman #2 but with a soft lead tip. Would that resultant bullet be the equal of a jacketed bullet of the same weight, trabelling at the same velocity?

Conversely, are there any advantages to using cast over jacketed?

What about larger bore cartridges in the same velocity range, such as 35 Remington and 444 marlin?

Regards the 30-30 in a lever action with conventional 170 gr FP jacketed using conventional powders there's really little difference between them and a 170 - 180 +/- gr cast bullet using the same powders at the same velocities.

With the use of LeveRevolution powder the game can be upped with both types of bullets, jacketed and cast. However, cast bullet performance falls behind that of the Hornady 160 gr FTX, especially in 24 - 26" barreled 30-30s. At 2450 fps out of my 24" M94 it becomes a 300 yard capable rifle with 1 1/2 to 20 moa accuracy. I push my 178 gr soft cast (hunting alloy) 311041HP to 2220 fps before accuracy is lost. That makes it a 250 yard rifle at best. I lose about 175 fps +/- with those loads out of my 20" M94 Carbine. The loads have been pressure tested by me and are under the SAAMI MAP for the 30-30.

In a lever action 35 Remington the RCBS 35-200-FN is or NOE clone would be my choice. In my bolt action 35 Remington again the Hornady FTX bullet and the NOE 35 XCB cast would be about equal as both are 2500 fps capable with LeveRevolution powder. Can't help with the 444 Marlin as I would prefer a 45-70 in a Marlin Lever action.......

[MT Gianni]

The advantages of jacketed bullets is that they can offer reliable expansion when delivered at high velocity. Cast can do that also at the right alloy. The speeds of over 2600 fps reduce the risk of missing your chosen spot on the animal because of flatter trajectory. With the 30 WCF and similar cartridges, the range for the velocity generally negates the need for jacketed.

[Petander]

When in a ground blind during outfitted black bear hunts, I mix my 45-70 bullet types. The first two out of the magazine are simple 400 gr jacketed Remington CoreLoks (very soft expandable jacketed bullet), the third is a cast 400 gr semi wadcutter, which will penetrate a black bear end-to-end. The last two are Buffalo Bore because things aren't going good at this point, and I'm on the ground with the angry bear.

This is how I think,too.

There are so many good jacketed bullets available for all calibers and impact velocities today,I use them for all edible lungshot game that won't eat me.

Dangerous game is cast/solid for preventing/stopping a possible charge.

[skeettx]

General Idea, perhaps
Up to 200 yards, cast is great
Beyond that jacketed in needed for expansion
Mike

[Winger Ed.]

J boolits give you longer range at higher speeds, with less critical figuring for drop and range since they'll shoot 'flatter'.

Short range, and lower speed cartridges, cast does fine.
In some cartridges, it won't really matter if the speeds are within the capabilities of cast.

[Bazoo]

Thank you everyone for all the replies. I've given this a lot of thought and research, but I've not taken game with cast yet, and nothing larger than deer yet.

I went into this thread thinking that the answer to the first question, was that cast with the propped alloy gives up nothing to jacketed at lower velocities. And from the replies I see that is correct.

[smoked turkey]

I have only one black bear kill to my credit. A couple of years ago I hunted in New Brunswick in eastern Canada, approximately 100 miles north of the US. I used my Ruger M77 in 35 Whelen. I used a load consisting of the 3589 boolit which I cast of 50/50 mix + 1.5% tin. The load was 45 gr of H4350EXT powder. Velocity was 1700'/s and my boolit came in at 295 grains. I was in a ground blind and had a perfect 60 yard broadside shot. The bear ran approximately 40 yards and piled up. He was a larger than normal spring boar with not much fat. The boolit could not have performed any better in my opinion. I really like the big 3589. I had no doubt it would do the job if I did mine. In my experience the 50/50 mix with a little tin makes all the difference in a boolit that both penetrates and expands.

[Petander]

Is that 50 WW/50 Pb?

I once made 308 bullets using 50 Lino/50 WW. I still have some, they penetrate man size tree trunks when fired at subsonic velocities with a can. Those are 200 grainers,loaded to normal velocities they break and shatter on most any impact.

But @ subsonic it would penetrate through a moose or two doing not much damage. Very bad idea. I sometimes see people saying how they need no more velocity "because the bullet only goes deeper in dirt". Slow cast penetrates like crazy,pencil through.

Using 45-70, I have some 350 Hornadys,mushroomed to 1", recovered from moose hide the other side. That 2150 fps load has always done substantial tissue damage @ close range,still cleaner holes and less bloodshot meat than a typical 308.

But when the distance goes up to 100 plus,that Hornady makes two holes. I won't expand any more. I like Speer 400 for those longer shots,it being softer than Hornady.

I want all the velocity I can get for my cast 45-70 loads. And alloy to match the purpose,it can be softer or harder but never brittle.

[smoked turkey]

Petander yes my 50/50 consisted of ww/pb. Your experience of the boolit being brittle with just wheelweight material was also my experience with penetration testing on a wet pack of phone books.
....."I once made 308 bullets using 50 Lino/50 WW. I still have some, they penetrate man size tree trunks when fired at subsonic velocities with a can. Those are 200 grainers,loaded to normal velocities they break and shatter on most any impact."...
I noticed the boolits breaking up and giving very little penetration in the wet pack. The 50/50 mix + some tin alleviated that. my shot on the bear was a complete pass through with a silver dollar size exit hole on the opposite side. I had done a lot of shooting at 30-75 yards prior to the hunt and as such it was not a problem for me to make an accurate hit on the bear as I knew exactly where my gun was shooting at that range.

[Petander]

Very good,thank you for the info.

A malleable,tough alloy is the key. By the way,I have had a mold for 35 Whelen for 15 years, I have cast many bullets, I have dies and I have made dummy ammo using -06 brass. But I still don't have a rifle for them.

It's good to have plans I guess.

Edit:found a pic,here are my 35 bullets with some 458's.

[white eagle]

What are the advantages, if any, to using jacketed bullets as opposed to cast,against larger than deer sized game in slower cartridges such as the 30/30? They would gain little if any in velocity, what about penetration?

For conversation sake, let's say they were cast from Lyman #2 but with a soft lead tip. Would that resultant bullet be the equal of a jacketed bullet of the same weight, traveling at the same velocity?

Conversely, are there any advantages to using cast over jacketed?

What about larger bore cartridges in the same velocity range, such as 35 Remington and 444 marlin?

Jacketed get the velocity edge and cast gets the penetration and mass edge
some cast boolits are heavier in a give cal than jacketed
some rifle cals its not doing you any favors by using cast but some are a
match made in heaven,like the 358 win and 45-70

[waksupi]

General Idea, perhaps
Up to 200 yards, cast is great
Beyond that jacketed in needed for expansion
Mike

Beyond that, you don't need to be shooting at big game.