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Thread: Real world accuracy

  1. #1

    Real world accuracy

    Good Morning, i have just placed my order for an Accurate .301 180 gr mold. I will be ordering different types of paper to try as suggested in the stickies. I shoot a Remington heavy barrel 308 that places Sierra 168 Matchkings into 5/8" groups with ease and regularity. When i start down this road of paper patching soft lead slugs for this rifle, will it be able to replicate what I can achieve with regular jaceted bullets? Im not a skeptical, or doubting the ability of paper patched bullets, just curious as to what i can expect. Thanks guys...

  2. #2
    On that 700, is there a muzzle attachment? I've only ever tried out of a clean muzzle but I've heard here others who have tried and found muzzle brakes negatively impact accuracy

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  3. #3
    Boolit Master Nobade's Avatar
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    I doubt you'll ever match the accuracy you can get with jacketed. But with enough work and patience you should be able to make it work quite well, say twice the size of your normal groups, at almost the same velocity. That's been my experience anyhow. It took a long time to get there, but more information is available now so you're not starting in the dark.
    "Quemadmoeum gladis nemeinum occidit, occidentis telum est."

  4. #4
    Boolit Buddy
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    For me who isnt highly experienced in this just a few years of tinkering, im stuck at 2moa and 2kfps in both my 10 twist 30 cals. Everytime i tried paperpatch at say 2200 it jumps to big enough to actually miss a whole deer at 50yds. So i just settle for heavy bullets at 2k. I guess its possible but idk how people do it

  5. #5
    Thanks for the replies. There is no muzzle break on my rifle. Im still going to attempt the paper patch route and see where it goes.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy KVO's Avatar
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    I am fairly new at this smokeless PP thing. Out of a 1-13" twist Krieger barrel (.308 Winchester) the best I've done with PP so far, with a fair amount of work, is 2-2.5 MOA. I'm sizing the NOE copy of the Saeco #315 down to .301", though I haven't proven to myself there is a significant difference between sizing before patching or just patch as cast and then ram it through the push thru sizer. I'm sizing to .301" using the NOE push thru system, FYI if you order an airgun body sizing die they have a larger mouth radius than the .300/.301" nose sizing does. Best result at 100yd so far, 41.0gr N140, chronographed AVG 2428fps:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    And this is with fire formed, neck sized Lapua brass and CCI BR primers.

    Looks pretty decent until you compare it to the ladder test... My experience this far has been at higher velocity very minor changes have a huge effect on accuracy:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    FWIW any time I've tried patching less than 100% bearing surface at higher velocity the accuracy is non existent; this gun has standard throat so I have to seat very deep:
    Click image for larger version. 

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    I can turn out groups like the top target with that PP load about 75% of the time but plagued by flyers. I'm still trying different kinds of paper and patch lube. Do I think much better can be done? Yes. Just haven't gotten there myself. For reference This gun will easily shoot under 1" 5 shot groups @ 100yd on demand with jacketed bullet handloads.

    *Edit- pictures are rotated for some reason. On the larger target the left column is sized .309" and the right .311". Loads from 38-41gr N140 with charge increasing further down. The 40gr group with both sizes was inexplicably enormous.
    Last edited by KVO; 05-23-2019 at 08:43 PM.

  7. #7
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    ShooterAZ's Avatar
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    Nice work KVO. My results with PP mirror yours and Nobade's as far as group sizes, and velocity- 2-2.5 MOA in the 30-06. I'm working on a different patch lube now, I'm trying the WLL 2500+. I like to seat the boolit against the powder as much as possible, and fully engrave it as I close the bolt. It is a lot of work, but it's fun and rewarding when everything comes together.

  8. #8
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I got pretty decent accuracy from a well worn 303 L.E. barrel with heavy and slow paper patched boolits using a soft alloy. The throat is well worn and the rifling shallow and rounded but improving toward the muzzle. I would assess that barrel to have a near ideal paper patch chamber, accepting a patched boolit that fits snugly into an unsized case neck.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy KVO's Avatar
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    ShooterAZ, I have some WLL 2500 and will try that soon. My best results with patch lube have been with BAC (admittedly haven't tried much else). My last PP session I tried tumbling the patched bullets in a generous amount of Ben's Liquid Lube then sized. They looked great, confetti at the muzzle but groups went over 6-8". I cannot isolate the BLL as the culprit by itself because I used a harder alloy for that batch. I've heard folks using a smear of LLA for patch lube with success? I might have had a failure due to saturating the patches and loss of air space in the paper fibers? Looking for Butterbean to save some time from my mistakes.

  10. #10
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    ShooterAZ's Avatar
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    I have tried LLA and Rooster jacket, as well as JPW as patch lubes. While they all worked, none worked as well as the BAC, it just works. I just thought I'd experiment with a different type of WL lube just for grins. I haven't had a chance to put any rounds downrange with it yet though. My alloys have been just soft range scrap, or 1/3/96 from isotope cores. Softer seems to work the best for me. I also do as 303Guy does, loading the patched boolit fitting it snugly into an unsized case neck. In my Rem 700 30-06, that boolit gets final sized to .310. Forgot to mention, I recently scored some H450 powder to try too, looking forward to trying it next.
    Last edited by ShooterAZ; 05-24-2019 at 11:36 AM.

  11. #11
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Work up a load at 1600 fps and you will put 5 on paper you can cover with a quarter. High velocity is not a friendly combination with cast bullets.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master Dan Cash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lead pot View Post
    Work up a load at 1600 fps and you will put 5 on paper you can cover with a quarter. High velocity is not a friendly combination with cast bullets.
    Unless the .30 patched bullet is not clocking 2000 fps or more at the muzzle, it is only a paper poking plinker. I hunt with paper patch in .30-30, .30-40 and .30-06 with great success but velocities are well over 2000. 2 inches at 100 yards is adequate, 2 inches at 200 yards is much better and my 95 Winchesters in .30-40 and .30-06 usually deliver that. Soft bullets seem to be the key in my case.
    To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, the trouble with many shooting experts is not that they're ignorant; its just that they know so much that isn't so.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by KVO View Post
    I am fairly new at this smokeless PP thing. Out of a 1-13" twist Krieger barrel (.308 Winchester) the best I've done with PP so far, with a fair amount of work, is 2-2.5 MOA. I'm sizing the NOE copy of the Saeco #315 down to .301", though I haven't proven to myself there is a significant difference between sizing before patching or just patch as cast and then ram it through the push thru sizer. I'm sizing to .301" using the NOE push thru system, FYI if you order an airgun body sizing die they have a larger mouth radius than the .300/.301" nose sizing does. Best result at 100yd so far, 41.0gr N140, chronographed AVG 2428fps:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20181116_140003.jpg 
Views:	15 
Size:	19.6 KB 
ID:	242308
    And this is with fire formed, neck sized Lapua brass and CCI BR primers.

    Looks pretty decent until you compare it to the ladder test... My experience this far has been at higher velocity very minor changes have a huge effect on accuracy:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20181116_135959.jpg 
Views:	16 
Size:	27.3 KB 
ID:	242309


    FWIW any time I've tried patching less than 100% bearing surface at higher velocity the accuracy is non existent; this gun has standard throat so I have to seat very deep:
    Click image for larger version. 

Name:	20181116_132424.jpg 
Views:	11 
Size:	17.4 KB 
ID:	242311

    I can turn out groups like the top target with that PP load about 75% of the time but plagued by flyers. I'm still trying different kinds of paper and patch lube. Do I think much better can be done? Yes. Just haven't gotten there myself. For reference This gun will easily shoot under 1" 5 shot groups @ 100yd on demand with jacketed bullet handloads.

    *Edit- pictures are rotated for some reason. On the larger target the left column is sized .309" and the right .311". Loads from 38-41gr N140 with charge increasing further down. The 40gr group with both sizes was inexplicably enormous.
    How good will the Saeco 315 shoot as a cast boolit at about 1600-1700 fps?

  14. #14
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Dan.

    Here is what I found getting ready for a lever rifle match using my .30-30 336 Marlin. These were not PP, I don't shoot PP in my lever rifles.
    These bullets were cast with 1/16 T/L alloy that is fairly soft compared to #2 Lyman or straight WW. I was pushing these around 2000 fps and I had a hard time holding paper at 138 yards I was testing the loads with barrel sights. I shot some in a snow bank to see what was going on and found what you see in the pictures. The recovered bullets were stretched longer than the unfired you see side by side by as much as .100". The next batch I shot I reduced the velocity to what turned out 1680+- a little and they looked good to go and they shot well in round groups.
    Now I don't know if this is a micro groove thing or not and I have not shot the faster loads in my .30-30 1905 93 Marlin with Ballard rifling so I can't say what recovered bullets look like shot from that rifle. I mostly shoot black powder in it anyway.
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  15. #15
    Boolit Master Dan Cash's Avatar
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    Lead Pot, What is the diameter of the better recovered bullets compared to the unfired projectiles? The stretch is interesting; I think one of the boys from down under mentioned observing that some time ago but I don't remember to what it was attributed. I am inclined to think the bullet is somewhat oversized.
    To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, the trouble with many shooting experts is not that they're ignorant; its just that they know so much that isn't so.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master Lead pot's Avatar
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    Dan I will look I might still have them and measure them.
    Here are some of the recovered .30-30 93 marlin bullets with the 1680 fps load and they look very good

    Click image for larger version. 

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check