fighting the battle of the bulge!

[jimb16]

Check your case wall thicknesses. Sounds like they may be out of spec. And check you case lengths too.

[DeputyDuke]

Attachment 242248 not much to see but here you go. why would a lee factory crimp die help? the brass is mixed but it dose it will any. most is ww brass,,,,,,,,,

I'm confused, so my comments make be completely wrong. Are you seating these wadcutters completely into the case s they are flush at the mouth? I have 180 gr. and a 245 gr. Lyman full wadcutter moulds and I crimp in the top groove with only the grease grooves in the case. Any reason you can't crimp in that top groove and leave that big full nose outside of the case?

[JM7.7x58]

I was having the same problem in my 38 special wadcutter load. I tried two different solutions. The first was to sort my brass. One headstamp in particular had tapered and thicker case walls. The chambering problem went away when I sorted out the thicker brass. Small bulge still remained however.

The other thing I was doing was seating the wadcutters flush. I have started to seat the boolit out to the first tumble lube groove. The bulge has gotten smaller.
JM

[Forrest r]

I'd be taking a hard look at 3 different things:

Calipers are ok for some things but mics are better. When I use calipers I'll test them with block gauges for accuracy.
[IMG][/IMG]

Mics are more accurate than calipers but they also need checked and reset.
[IMG][/IMG]


Your sizing die is sizing the heck out of those cases, the end result is the wasp waist look your getting (bullet bulge). Case neck tension is a good thing. But too much neck tension is bad & will create other issues. Even if you have the correct diameter expander it has to have a long enough body to go deep enough into the case to expand the case where it counts the most. Namely the bullets base.
[IMG][/IMG]

IMHO:
Looking at your reloads is seems that your cases are over sized and then under expanded/not expanded deep enough. Add to that the bullets are not being seated strait and are going to the least point of resistance. The more force it takes to seat the large/long bullet into the under sized/under expanded case. The greater the chance for the bullet to angle to the least point of resistance and having the wrong seating stem makes it easier for this to happen.


A ca bulldog (44spl) with 220gr hbwc's loaded backwards. The 220gr hbwc's are sized to .431".
[IMG][/IMG]

Same bullets (220grhbwc's/.431") loaded in 44spl cases for a s&w 624. They are seated flush & crimped at different seating depths looking for accuracy along with lubed in both grooves, 1 groove & tumble lubed.
[IMG][/IMG]

What you don't see is bullet bulge or wasp waist with any of those reloads. That's because I honed my sizing die out for the larger .431" bullets. Most sets of dies are designed for short bodied jacketed bullets. The sizing dies tend to over size the cases to have a death grip on those .429" jacketed bullets. It's just not needed 3/1000th's neck tension is plenty. Measure you sized case and then a case that's been loaded with 1 of your wc bullets. You're more than most likely in the +/- 8/1000th's neck tension range. I've used a lyman m-die expander for decades for all my 44spl/mag cast bullet loads. Never had a problem with it so I've never used anything else. You should use a flat faced seating stem in your seating die for those wc's. If you don't have 1 simply buy a bolt that matches the threads of your seating die and use it.

Myself I'd start by checking the calipers. Then get expander die designed for the longer/larger cast bullets (NEO is a good place to call, they will set you up with excellent expanders for little $$$). Lastly I'd be taking a look at your sizing die. I have 2 sets of reloading dies for my 44spl's/mags. 1 for cast bullets (.430"/.431") and the other for jacketed bullets (.429"). The cast bullet die set has a honed sizing die and uses a m-die for expanding the cases. The jacketed bullet die set has a standard sizing die and a factory expander die.

Don't know if any of this helps but your 44spl wc reload look a lot different then mine.

[tangolima]

The bulge is fine unless it is uneven around the brass (bullet seated crooked) or it impedes chambering (bullet diameter + brass thickness too big).

Looks like we have a latter case here. 2 solutions. Lee FCD to work it back down, or better yet. Assuming correct bullet diameter, you can reduce brass thickness. I would seat the bullet shallower, where the brass is thinner. For revolver that allows the bullet further in the cylinder throat, and it may actually helps the accuracy.

Try handloading for nagant revolver. Now that is the real battle of the bulge without the bulge visible.

-TL

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[RogerDat]

Any chance you can locate some actual wad cutter brass? I think it will often have a second canelure lower on the case. That brass should have straighter walls inside further down the case. I know it makes a difference in how well WC style bullets load in 38 special brass if I sort the WC brass out and use it for the HBWC bullets. I also have a 148 grain WC mold that has a crimp grove that leaves the bullet out of the case mouth just a bit. Ends up with the same amount of bullet in the case as a "regular" 158 grain bullet. Those don't get tight in regular .38 brass the way my deeper seating HBWC do.

I use the NOE expander plug mentioned in another post to size the inside of the case to fit cast bullets but I see you are using the Lyman M die which does the same thing. And since they won't chamber getting a slightly larger NOE if available wouldn't help.

I think you might want to figure out how deep your regular bullets seat and try to put the base of the HBWC that deep in the case. As others have suggested seat higher in the brass to avoid the bulge point. If that works then you know it is the case is thicker or tapered lower down causing the problem.

[tangolima]

Or you can ream out the inside of the brass, if you can find a reamer with proper diameter. In desperation I even used neck turner to turn the brass wall thinner.

-TL

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[RogerDat]

Or you can ream out the inside of the brass, if you can find a reamer with proper diameter. In desperation I even used neck turner to turn the brass wall thinner.

-TL

Sent from my SM-G930T using Tapatalk

I have heard of that reaming being required for some 30-06 brass trimmed and sized to 8mm mauser to avoid a bulge from the thicker brass further down the case where the new 8mm neck is now located.

[olskool]

today I will seat the boolit out further. I think "forrest r" has a good point, the sizer is sizing the heck out of that brass! and I have been thinking the brass wasn't expanded enough deep inside the case as well. I am going to take a look at the M die and make sure all is well with it, I have other M dies that seam to flare longer and deeper. maybe there is a problem with this one or maybe the wrong one some how? I have had it a long time. I think the boolit is taking the path of least or weakest resistance inside the brass. I am going to also sort the brass to find the thinnest case walls. and I do have a micrometer and more than one caliber. but the one I show in the photo is dead on. like I said I have been fighting with this for decades. I have been handloading 52 years now and this problem hangs on, but I will get to the bottom of it this time!

there has been a lot of good suggestions and info here and I do apprecheat it! i will keep this thread informed on the progress,,,,,,,,,,,,

[olskool]

well I think I am getting there. this morning I was thinking about what "forrest r" said "Your sizing die is sizing the heck out of those cases"
I went out to the loading room and started over. I readjusted the size die. I backed off it several turns to where it only sized to about half the case. and bam! things started to improve. I set the die years ago and always thought it was correct, it worked fine for other boolits but when trying to seat all the way with the HBWC the problem arose. still I have a couple that has to big of a bulge to chamber, but I did notice with remington brass they work every time. I ordered 50 ct. new rem. brass today. thanks for all the input! and good advice,,,,,,,,,,,

[asmith80]

This has been a great thread for me to follow. I'm having some bulge issues in my 9mm after switching my RCBS dies out for Dillon dies. I'm going to try backing out the sizer a bit and see if I get a similar result

[Taterhead]

Some brass is just fragile. I have old 38 spl cases that bulge like that from the force of the spring from the case activated powder measure. Also bulge like that with long WC brass.

My solution was to recycle that brass and use some that are more tolerant. Starline cases are great in 38 spl as are WC spec brass. Not a lot of those WC cases are around though.

Glad you found a workaround, but the sizer adjustment is not an optimal long term solution since the lower part is not reaching all the way.

I'd also be sure that your expander reaches deep enough into the case to cover the full extent of the bullet bearing surface. That way it doesn't matter if your sizer sizes small. The expander shank will open it back up. I find an RCBS cowboy expander to work great. It is wider than typical and expands deep with an M profile case mouth.

Of course, as has been stated earlier, some cases are just too thick to allow for the deep seated WC.

[DougGuy]

well I think I am getting there. I ordered 50 ct. new rem. brass today. thanks for all the input! and good advice,,,,,,,,,,,

Good. I figured at most the bulge needed to be only a thou or two smaller and it would chamber all of the time. Seating out was one way to do that, using thinner(?) brass is another way, Squishing the bulge with a FCD was another way. Like it was, it was gonna go until the .458" bulge got near bouts to the .457" part of the chamber and it weren't gonna go any further.

[Dusty Bannister]

I think we were expecting the bullet to be loaded in the conventional HB configuration. Given the solid nose of the bullet was loaded first, there was no "give" that the hollow skirt would have afforded.

Pretty heavy roll crimp for a WC load. Perhaps mixed cases are also a factor.

[Echo]

My question is about the alloy you are using. Seems to me that regular (like WW+2%Sn) would be soft enough to swage down when it hit the thicker part of the case, especially with the thin tail shown in the pictures.

[skeettx]

When is the last time you cleaned your shell holders?
See if you have crud under the rim recesses
Mike

[olskool]

all good points and questions. the lead is 50% ww 50% pure soft. the bulge comes no matter if hollow end is loaded up or down. I know i still don't have it fixed 100% it is a combination of at least a couple of different factors, but I will keep at it and let ya'll know the outcome,,,,,,,,,

[Bama]

well I think I need a little help! let me give a little background on me. I have been handloading since 1967 so I am not exactly new to it. I have been casting since 1981 I have been fighting the battle of the bulge in straight wall cases for years. I had a lot of problems with 45 acp years back. I started using an M die and a Redding competition seat die and it helped significantly. well today I tried loading up some full HBWC in 44 special and they bulge so bad that most wont fit in the chamber. I am using an M die and the seating stem in the RCBS die is not totally correct but in dose seam to sit square and straight on the nose of the boolit, I don't think the stem is the whole problem because even with the correct one in 38/357 there is still a significant bulge at times. and there doesn't seam to be certain brand of brass that helps or hurts the situation. is there any better seating stem I can order? I am using single stage RCBS A2 and 2A presses. for what ever reason the concentricity is not correct. are there any ideas,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Had same problem with 38/357s. A few months and it abou drove me crazy. Had been using some old die sets . Bad thing it was not everyone , just about one or two in every other cylinder full. Save out about 50 bad one s. And a shooting buddy gave me a die to run them back through. All but a couple then worked with no issues. He told me the die was the number four die in a Lee four die set. Went out and got two sets so I didn’t have to change and readjust between 38 and 357. Problem solved. A lot of people run Lee equipment down but they are doing themselves a diss ervice sometimes.

[Three44s]

I had trouble with a Dan Wesson revolver in 41 Mag. The bullets were not bulging but the case body near the rim was just a bit oversized. A Lee FCD took care of it.

I use the FCD on other calibers and generally it just ticks a small bulge normally loaded rounds. Once in a while there is an occasional round that has a bit more bulge and the die will iron it out. I realize a lot of folks frown on the Lee FCD but I do not.

If a person feels the need they could always sort the individual cartridges out that the die interacts with to a greater extent and relegate those to dirt clod busters etc.

Three44s

[olskool]

I just ordered 3 Lee FCD dies. a 357 a 44 and a 45 acp for a friend of mine. interested to see how they do,,,,,,,,,,