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Thread: fighting the battle of the bulge!

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    fighting the battle of the bulge!

    well I think I need a little help! let me give a little background on me. I have been handloading since 1967 so I am not exactly new to it. I have been casting since 1981 I have been fighting the battle of the bulge in straight wall cases for years. I had a lot of problems with 45 acp years back. I started using an M die and a Redding competition seat die and it helped significantly. well today I tried loading up some full HBWC in 44 special and they bulge so bad that most wont fit in the chamber. I am using an M die and the seating stem in the RCBS die is not totally correct but in dose seam to sit square and straight on the nose of the boolit, I don't think the stem is the whole problem because even with the correct one in 38/357 there is still a significant bulge at times. and there doesn't seam to be certain brand of brass that helps or hurts the situation. is there any better seating stem I can order? I am using single stage RCBS A2 and 2A presses. for what ever reason the concentricity is not correct. are there any ideas,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

  2. #2
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    You don't mention whether you size your boolits or use them as cast, It sounds to me like boolits are larger than they need to be. A slight bulge with a cast boolit is a good thing, since crimping alone will not give consistent ignition, you need decent case neck tension which you obviously have.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  3. #3
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    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    Concur with DougGuy a slight bulge even around the case can be a good thing. With many bullets a perfect fit of the bullet nose in the seat stem is essential.....close does not often get it.

    Also could be your sizer (assuming a carbide sizer?) is sizing the cases too much. If you have an old steel sizer you might try that as they usually don't size the cases as much. Or you could get a larger (suggest .002 under bullet diameter) expander from NOE.
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Bullet dia may be the culprit here. measure some of your bullets and see how big they are. Is the bulge at the base of the bullet? or where is it located along the case. I have had bulges when seating a long wadcutter style bullet deep in short cases when the bullet is getting into the cases taper to deep. I would think a Hollow base bullet would collapse to match this rather than expand the case though.
    Knowing where the budge is along the case would help a lot. ( A heavy crimp may cause a bulge just behind the case mouth).

  5. #5
    Boolit Mold
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    it is not a "good thing" when they wont go in the chamber! LOL the boolits are sized correctly .431 and no it is not a heavy crimp causing it. they bulge "to much" even without a crimp. there is probably several things at play causing it. there is a lot of talk on line about it but I have saw no real tangible salutations to the problem ,,,,,,,,,,,

  6. #6
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    Are the chambers perhaps undersized?

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy
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    I have the same issue with a couple pistols. Maybe 3-4 out of 100 are too bulged to chamber. Solution was to run them PARTIALLY into the sizing die. Just enough to get them to plunk. This'll take the bulge out without ruining tension. If you run it all the way up, it'll swage down the boolit.

    Sent from my XT1710-02 using Tapatalk

  8. #8
    Boolit Master

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    Need to check the dimensions of the shank on your expander vs the bullet diameter. If trying to fit too wide a bullet into a case that is not sufficiently expanded, less desirable results may follow, including asymmetric bulging.

    To be clear, I'm not referring to the amount or shape of the case mouth flair. In referring to the dimension of the internal diameter of the neck vs bullet diameter.

    Secondly, For some guns I must brass sort for the thinnest brass. E.g. FC for 9mm and R-P for 45 Auto. Otherwise too thick overall for consistent chambering.

  9. #9
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taterhead View Post
    Need to check the dimensions of the shank on your expander vs the bullet diameter. If trying to fit too wide a bullet into a case that is not sufficiently expanded, less desirable results may follow, including asymmetric bulging.

    To be clear, I'm not referring to the amount or shape of the case mouth flair. In referring to the dimension of the internal diameter of the neck vs bullet diameter.

    Secondly, For some guns I must brass sort for the thinnest brass. E.g. FC for 9mm and R-P for 45 Auto. Otherwise too thick overall for consistent chambering.
    taterhead that is the track I am on. I know it is frustrating! I have had it happen in straight walled rifle brass, such as the 444 but they always chamber fine.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by olskool View Post
    the boolits are sized correctly .431
    .431" + 2x case neck thickness (assuming they are .011" or close, Starline averages .011") of .022" = .453"

    I could not find a chamber drawing for 44 Special, but SAAMI specs for the cartridge itself lists .456" as the diameter at the case mouth (below the crimp). Wikipedia lists .457" which I think it mistakenly taken from the chamber drawing which is pretty close. This is a straight walled cartridge, the chamber itself is tapered to ease extraction and most 44 caliber cylinders I have encountered would easily plunk a .432" loaded into a 44 magnum case. Essentially there is no difference in SAAMI specs for case diameter for 44 magnum and 44 special only the cartridge and or chamber length.

    You don't say what model gun this is, but I can tell you from experience that I have seen a number of Ruger cylinders with undersize chambers, one particular cylinder measured several thousandths tighter in two chambers than it did in the other four. Ruger would not address this issue in two trips back to the bakery for repairs. I had to buy a finishing reamer and ream the two chambers so the cylinder was usable again.

    The way this happens is this. I don't know what they are using currently, because the medium frame guns are excellently fit and finished and I have seen none of the inconsistencies in cylinders that used to be commonplace, but before this they used a Hitachi machine with 3 chucks, they would gang ream 3 holes, index the cylinder one hole and gang ream the other 3. They throated cylinders the same way. Nothing wrong with this method, BUT... They didn't change all of the reamers when the wore too small to cut an acceptable chamber, they would only change the one that was unserviceable, leaving the other two worn cutters to do more work before they replaced those also.

    Your cylinder is probably the cause of the problem and could suffer from tight chambers from being made with worn tooling. There is no way a round loaded with .431" boolits will fail to plunk in a chamber that is even remotely close to the SAAMI spec of .457" unless it measures larger than .457" when assembled and crimped, *OR* the chamber itself is smaller than the assembled boolit..

    What do your loaded rounds measure just under the crimp?
    Last edited by DougGuy; 05-22-2019 at 03:10 PM.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  11. #11
    Boolit Mold
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    I have 3 different guns. a ruger bisley flat top. a charter arms "boomer" a smith Wesson model 24-3 it ain't the gun, it happens in them all. the bulge is pronounced in most cases. I just ran across this special Redding expander die, maybe,,,,,,,,,,,

    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/80...m-expander-die

  12. #12
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    Some pics and some measurements would help a LOT in members trying to assist with the issue.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I noticed a buldge when loading j words in 44 specials the last time I loaded. Mine fit fine in my cylinders though. I did also have the same issue with my 45 colt vaquero...I forgot I never sized the boolts after PCing. My fault. All my straight wall pistol ammo I load for ALWAYS has a buldge. I just forget about it and shoot. My buldged cast boolit ammo shoots .6" groups at a 100 yards out of my 77/44 when I do my part. I believe buldge is good for neck pressures. ..as long as they chamber. Did you pull a me and not size your boolits? I've also caused buldging by adjusting my dies to low.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 05-22-2019 at 09:36 PM.

  14. #14
    Boolit Mold
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    this is as bad as they get. .458 at the biggest part of the bulge. about 2 out of 10 is fine and slide right into the chamber. also I have been loading for the 44 sp. and mag. for many decades. this is the only time I have had it happen with the 44 sp. because I am loading the HBWC and as you know it goes deep into the case.

  15. #15
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tripplebeards View Post
    I noticed a buldge when loading j words in 44 specials the last time I loaded. Mine fit fine in my cylinders though. I did also have the same issue with my 45 colt vaquero...I forgot I never sized the boolts after PCing. My fault. All my straight wall pistol ammo I load for ALWAYS has a buldge. I just forget about it and shoot. My buldged cast boolit ammo shoots .6" groups at a 100 yards out of my 77/44 when I do my part. I believe buldge is good for neck pressures. ..as long as they chamber. Did you pull a me and not size your boolits? I've also caused bulding by adjusting my dies to low.
    as I stated above they were sized on my star at .431,,,,,,,

  16. #16
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    May we see a pic of the boolit by itself? What brass is this?

    I thought I would never live to see the day I would be in favor of a carbide sizer like the Lee FCD has, but this is down to a math problem the FCD would fix. It's obvious that there isn't enough room at that part of the chamber for a .431" boolit, + the even thicker at that point brass, so something will have to give.

    The boolit is the softest part of the equation so I would say that the base of the boolit must be smaller so not to force the brass out beyond the chamber diameter. You could run the loaded round through a die sized .457" and get by with that, although it would size the base of the boolit down as much as it is needed to make the bulge fit in the chamber, and with a hollow base prehaps it will obturate once free of the case.

    You could take a Lee .452" push through sizer and hone it out to .457" and run the ones that bulge real bad through that, it is actually the cheapest fix at $22 or so for the die.

    You could alternately seat the boolit to the top lube groove in the case and crimp there, extending the COA length, but the boolit wouldn't be seated far enough down to bulge as much. This is even cheaper fix, you would need to adjust the load data accordingly.
    Last edited by DougGuy; 05-22-2019 at 05:31 PM.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  17. #17
    Boolit Mold
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ID:	242248 not much to see but here you go. why would a lee factory crimp die help? the brass is mixed but it dose it will any. most is ww brass,,,,,,,,,

  18. #18
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    Hmm. What weight are those?

    The FCD is intended to iron out bulges in the outside of the case. It has a carbide ring in the bottom that slides down over the assembled round, sizing down any bulges. You would probably need one custom made to the .457" dimension. If your chambers are to spec, .457" would plunk in all of them. Apparently the boolits with a bulge larger than .458" are the problem. The FCD would uniform that.

    If it were me, I would just seat out longer and crimp in the top groove, then adjust load data accordingly. This would put the base of the boolit higher in the case where the walls are thinner. Case walls get thicker as they get to the rim.
    Got a .22 .30 .32 .357 .38 .40 .41 .44 .45 .480 or .500 S&W cylinder that needs throats honed? 9mm, 10mm/40S&W, 45 ACP pistol barrel that won't "plunk" your handloads? 480 Ruger or 475 Linebaugh cylinder that needs the "step" reamed to 6° 30min chamfer? Click here to send me a PM You can also find me on Facebook Click Here.

  19. #19
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    I don't know why these problems are cropping up now.
    I've been reloading for 60 years. Back when we used steel sizing dies, M-die expanders and sized bullets to .430 for .44spl/mag.
    We never had these problems. Used COWW/#2 for most loads. Rarely had anything of Leading.

    Even using carbide dies these days. I don't have bulge problems, except with one case/load.

    I load .44WCF using a Lyman die set from the 1960's. I seat a .428 diameter bullet which causes a bulge in the case. The old sizer die sizes the case farther down because the old chamberings of .44WCF were sized farther down for .425 diameter bullets.

    Remington Jackets bullets used to be .425 diameter. And Lyman made the #42498 bullet mold, this year they discontinued the #42798 bullet mold.

    I think Carbide sizer dies are made too small. And bullets are being sized too big.

    Too many folks are using the Lee FCD as a crutch for poor die adjustment or cheaply made dies.
    Last edited by Walks; 05-22-2019 at 10:01 PM. Reason: Auto-correct
    I HATE auto-correct

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  20. #20
    Boolit Grand Master Tripplebeards's Avatar
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    I just remembered why my specials bulged with j words. I loaded hornady 180 grain xtp's and I was having trouble seating them and they started crooked...some were completely seated crooked with bullet sitting at an angle. Needless to say I pulled them and started over.

    Is the bulge even all the way around? If not you might have started your bolts crooked like I did.

    Looks to me like your boolits are too long and your case narrows towards the base causing your bulge if I had to guess. Take a dummy round and don't seat it as deep and slowly keep adjusting your die down till it bulges. At least you will find out at what length the issue starts and maybe you'll have enough room in your cylinder for the extra length.
    Last edited by Tripplebeards; 05-22-2019 at 10:10 PM.

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