NM BLACKHAWK FLATTOP 45 / 45-270 SAA, NOE 280 Keith, or 454427?

[gcf]

Gents -
Recently acquired a medium frame NM .45 Flattop, from a good friend. I've been a S&W N frame CB shooter for years, but this is actually my first SA. From what I can tell, it's pretty well put together. Throats are uniform .4515", & the bore is quite nice, w/ no apparent choke points.

Haven't slugged it, but figure .451" groove. May need to open the throats to .4525" (ream or hone?), & lightly lap, but plan to shoot it a bit first. Who knows, I might get lucky.

I have a small stockpile of unsized / unlubed 454424 265 grain, reportedly 11 - 12 BHN, to get me started. Sized to .452", & lubed w/ LBT, they wouldn't begin to push through the throats. Run through a second .451" sizer, they are a VERY snug push through fit.

Originally planned to order a box of the 45-270 SAA from someone (??), but notice recently that GT Bullets offers a similar CB from a NOE mold, & they are currently on sale.

http://www.gtbullets.com/index.php?m...products_id=56


Assume it's this bullet, although it might be his 45-270SAA clone:
http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product...oducts_id=2887

Not looking to pursue Cape Buffalo w/ this thing, just like CB's a bit on the heavier side. Plan to load for best accuracy, somewhere in the standard - to +P pressure range. Have a fair selection of medium rate pistol powders, as well as some 2400, & IMR4227.

So my questions to you .45 Colt SA aficionados, are these:

1. Which of the three specified Keith style CB's would you recommend for my Blackhawk, & why?

2. If I find it necessary to open the throats to the normal CB .4525", would it be better to ream, or hone - & why? Seems like I heard once that honing produces more precise results - when throats only need to be opened a minimal (.001" in this case) amount. Any truth to this?

Anyway, your input on these questions (or anything else on subject) would be appreciated. Thanks in advance!

[Gohon]

I have a new Vaquero 45 Colt...measurements are Cylinder Throats = .4515, Bore = .442, and Groove = .450 inch. I cast my own with a RCBS 45-270 SSA mold using straight wheel weights. BHN is 11-12 and unlike other reports I've read my bullets drop spot on at 270 grains. I was sizing them at .454 inch until I started powder coating several years ago but now I size to .452 inch. Being a fixed sight gun I had to do some filing on the front sight to get the POA and POI in line at 25 yards. Anyhow, these bullets shoot like a dream and I didn't open the throats at all. Even out of the H&R rifle these guys are printing a half inch or less at 50 yards using IMR 4227 powder at 1468 FPS. If I were you I'd do some shooting before messing around with the throats.

Reason I first sized at .454 was to eliminate leading with regular lube but with powder coating I can run a smaller size and still get no barrel leading running at 936 FPS ahead of a load of Unique.

[gcf]

I have a new Vaquero 45 Colt...measurements are Cylinder Throats = .4515, Bore = .442, and Groove = .450 inch. I cast my own with a RCBS 45-270 SSA mold using straight wheel weights. BHN is 11-12 and unlike other reports I've read my bullets drop spot on at 270 grains. I was sizing them at .454 inch until I started powder coating several years ago but now I size to .452 inch. Being a fixed sight gun I had to do some filing on the front sight to get the POA and POI in line at 25 yards. Anyhow, these bullets shoot like a dream and I didn't open the throats at all. Even out of the H&R rifle these guys are printing a half inch or less at 50 yards using IMR 4227 powder at 1468 FPS. If I were you I'd do some shooting before messing around with the throats.

Thanks for your response - especially the throat, & groove measurements. That's just the type of input I'm looking for. Is your Vaquero a NM - built on the .357 medium frame?

Oh and yeah, point well taken. I fully intend to shoot it "a good bit" - BEFORE deciding whether or not to open the throats.

Still like to get some feedback on the NOE mold CB from GT Bullets.

[DougGuy]

I hone a ton of these medium framed cylinders to .4525" it's the only way you can use a .452" and still get a .452" to the barrel. Otherwise boolits leave the front of the cylinder at throat diameter. The harder the alloy you shoot, the more critical this is. The softer, the easier the boolit will obturate to fill the throats and also the barrel.

As far as reaming vs. honing, reaming is not nearly a smooth a finish, and you will need to finish at least .0005" below your intended final diameter to leave enough meat in the throats to finish smooth. I use a Sunnen hone mostly and rarely ream throats anymore.

There is one fact about Ruger cylinders that neither the reamer nor the hone can escape, and this is the metallurgical properties of THAT cylinder. Ruger gets their cylinder blanks in long rods on rail cars from the steel mill. It is some kind of chrome moly alloy, but it is tough, granular, and for the most part does not like to be machined. The heat treatment is all over the board, the grain structure can be very un-oriented, and inconsistent. I have reamed cylinders where the reamer cuts smoothly and nicely through 3 throats on one side, and then you nearly twist the shank of the reamer slam off trying to ream throats on the other side of the same cylinder. I have seen whole cylinders this hard to ream even with a new reamer, I have reamed cylinders with 5 throats that reamed smoothly, and one that would not ream no matter what I did to it, I ended up having to use a punch and beat the reamer clear of the cylinder after the flutes cut all the way through the throat. Oddly enough, this same throat that had a .4525" reamer beat through it with a hammer and a punch, would NOT pass a .452" Z minus pin gage through it, and it took me repeated passes with the Sunnen hone to get this one throat to finish at .4525" where it had a light drag fit and a consistent drag fit with all the other throats in the same cylinder. This job could not have been done without stepless tooling such as a Sunnen hone.

The unfortunate nature of the steel in these Ruger cylinders, I am referring to all of them, large frame, medium frame, even some stainless cylinders, is that some of them cannot be reamed smoothly, and cannot be honed smoothly on the Sunnen hone, no matter what tension I use or what stones I use, they persist in having this "pull out" or "tear out" where little pieces of the wall of the throat will pull out and cause a scratch halfway around the throat, jamming the hone up and taking the cylinder out of my hands and spinning it. There is no rhyme or reason for this, no explanation, and no way to predict how a particular cylinder will machine until you start machining it. I have seen this countless times out of over 2,000 cylinders that have come through my shop. I am totally at the mercy of whatever metallurgical properties THAT cylinder has. Most times when this happens I can pretty much get a good finish in the throats and the scratches are small, they will never hurt accuracy or be a spot where leading might collect, for the most part they fill in quickly with powder and lube residue but before they are shot, you can see them if you look closely in a bright light.

I once had nine 45 caliber cylinders on the hone at one time, about half blued and half stainless, two 45 ACP cylinders and the rest 45 Colt. All but one finished smooth as a baby's bottom, but one out of the nine INSISTED on having a few spots of tear out in the throats. I tried finer stones, I tried less tension, I tried borazon stones, I even beveled off the back side of the stones so no tiny chunks of abrasive would dislodge and become stuck when it went around the next time, nothing I did would stop it from tearing out and grabbing the cylinder and spinning it.

The above paragraphs are about as complete a story of the virtues of honing vs. reaming that I know to tell. Mostly the medium framed cylinders finish better than the older large frame ones do, but it's never a 100% sure thing until the cylinder is finished, how smooth it will finish. Also I should add that due to the inconsistence in hardness, throats that are reamed will often finish at different diameters, so keep this in mind when you decide to buy a reamer, you won't know what you are getting into until you are well into the job.

By contrast, I have NEVER had a S&W cylinder exhibit this tear out. They are smooth from beginning to end and they hone and polish like glass.

Edit: If a guy had a tool like the Sunnen hone where he could use a 280 grit or 400 grit stone to take throats to .0005" under size, then switch over to a mandrel with a hardened roller in place of the stone, which would burnish the surface of the throats, then he would have THE PERFECT cylinder throat tooling for resizing throats. Unfortunately I don't know if they make a burnisher that would be economic enough to do the job the Sunnen does by finishing with finer and finer grade abrasives. This way there would always be a smooth finish with no tearout.

[Tom W.]

I had a Ruger BH a few years ago with the .45 acp cylinder. It took me a long time and a lot of boolits to see that the RCBS 45 270 SAA worked the best for me.

[Gohon]

Yes my gun is a New Model Vaquero 45 Colt. Got to thinking about those measurements I posted so I slugged the cylinder throats again tonight...yep, they're at .415, actually .4155 using a micrometer. All I know is it shoots those .452 casts of 10-12 BHN like like it was made for them and I suspect up to 15 BHN would be the same. I've never shot jacketed stuff in the gun and probable never will. Seems these Ruger new model revolvers are cut different and pretty much standard as compared to their previous production guns in the past.

Right now I also have a New Model Vaquero in 357 Magnum I'm trying to regulate for a 158 grain load. These Vaqueros having a fixed front sight have to be pretty much regulated for one particular load and then use Kentucky windage for other loads. I contacted Ruger and they told me they use factory ammo and regulate the front sight at 15 yards which is why the front sight is so tall. Had to do a lot of filing on that front sight but I'm just about where POA and POI are lining up.

[osteodoc08]

45-270-SAA is my go to anything colt except light plinking loads which I like the 200 RNFP design.