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Thread: 30-30 Case Life Test.

  1. #41
    Boolit Grand Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    Thanks for the replies.

    35remington, I know that less sizing will result in longer case life, all else being equal. I think I have a tight chamber and gun, and that will certainly produce different results than someone with a loose chamber and using minimum dies.

    I've been thinking on how I can measure the shoulder. Im going to try using a socket to index on the shoulder and see if I can get a repeatable measurement. If it works it won't be as good as a store bought comparator but it will offer a close idea .

    Trapper, I know lube dents result from too much lube on the shoulder or right below it. I get small dents with Hornady one shot. I mention it as evidence that my dies are indeed moving the shoulder some.

  2. #42
    Boolit Grand Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    Thanks longpoint, it didn't occur to me to use an empty casing. I'll try that and see if it's consistent.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master trapper9260's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bazoo View Post
    Thanks for the replies.

    35remington, I know that less sizing will result in longer case life, all else being equal. I think I have a tight chamber and gun, and that will certainly produce different results than someone with a loose chamber and using minimum dies.

    I've been thinking on how I can measure the shoulder. Im going to try using a socket to index on the shoulder and see if I can get a repeatable measurement. If it works it won't be as good as a store bought comparator but it will offer a close idea .

    Trapper, I know lube dents result from too much lube on the shoulder or right below it. I get small dents with Hornady one shot. I mention it as evidence that my dies are indeed moving the shoulder some.
    I was not sure you know about the over lube. I use Hornady Unique for my case lube .
    Life Member of NRA,NTA,DAV ,ITA. Also member of FTA,CBA

  4. #44
    Boolit Grand Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    Thanks trapper,

    I've not tried the unique lube yet. I've been using imperial or Hornady one shot. The one shot though, because you spray it one gets on the shoulder. I don't scrimp on it, and it'll make little dents. It's a lot faster than the imperial, but I like the imperial better.

  5. #45
    Boolit Grand Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    Using a 357 magnum case as a comparitor, my die is moving the shoulder back .039. I still have some ammo that was loaded back when I did this test, and the test case was probably loaded in that batch even. That older loaded ammo, and a newly sized case both measure the same .039 of setback from a fire formed case. I checked to make certain that the shell holder was indeed bottomig out when sizing as I have some spring in my press, And it was.

    That is a lot of case shoulder movement!

  6. #46
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    I wonder about using RCBS X dies. I have never trimmed 30-30 cases since going to them.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  7. #47
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    I have some old Winchester cases that were factory loaded with nickel primers that have been loaded 16 times with light cast bullet loads, FL sized every time they were reloaded. I believe the old brass was better quality; it has a different color tint than the very shiny new Winchester.

  8. #48
    Boolit Grand Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    I'm lookin to investigate the X dies at some point myself. I don't understand how it can stop case stretch because I was under the impression the majority of case stretch came from headspace. Do the x dies size to standard dimensions or do you set it to minimum for your chamber to stop case stretch?

  9. #49
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    My understanding that pulling an expander button thru the neck of a case can cause it to stretch. I guess I could test the pretty easily if I was not so lazy. I don't see how neck sizing would increase case life if the failure is a crack in the neck unless you use an bushing neck die and don't expand the neck after sizing.

    Tim
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  10. #50
    Boolit Grand Master Bazoo's Avatar
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    I have measured both standard neck expanded brass and non expanded but sized brass from the same die and both were stretched. Maybe the brass used with an expander button was some longer, but at the time I didn't think it was much different.

    I also have measured the difference between a standard expander button and a carbide button, though in different dies. I don't see any difference in lengthening between the two.

    I'm moving my 30-30 loading away from neck expanded to all outside sized and M die expanded. It has nothing to do with case stretch. It's partly because of the increased ease of loading, since I use an M die all the time even with jacketed bullets. It's also because pulling the neck expander out of the case also pulls some soot which ends up scratching the next piece of brass and eventually the die.

    That latter issue would be cured if I wet tumbled, but I don't currently, not counting the fact that I don't always clean my brass between loadings.
    Last edited by Bazoo; 11-06-2020 at 06:46 PM.

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bazoo View Post
    I'm lookin to investigate the X dies at some point myself. I don't understand how it can stop case stretch because I was under the impression the majority of case stretch came from headspace. Do the x dies size to standard dimensions or do you set it to minimum for your chamber to stop case stretch?
    You set the dies to reach the shell holder as in normal dies.
    [The Montana Gianni] Front sight and squeeze

  12. #52
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    Interesting results, but I guess I am not surprised much. Like others said, the fit from chamber to sizing die is the most important. The better the two are matched, the less the brass is worked.

    I am on 16 reloads with my .308 brass. BUT...it is almost all cast bullet loads. I neck size using the Lee collet die. Only because I am lazy. No need for case lube. After the 10th reload I full length sized and trimmed all of them. About half were not touched by the trim cutter. Then went back to neck sizing. Still going. After the 10th reload I also cut a case lengthwise. Could not see any stretch in any portion of the case. Given the low pressures I expect the primer pockets to 'last' forever. And I do not anneal my cases.

    Good luck with the .30-30's.

  13. #53
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    I load .30-30 toward book max and lube the cases to allow them to flow back against the bolt face without stretching at the web. Being a rear-locking action, the shoulder moves forward, and while they can be rechambered, it is with some resistance, so I set the shoulder back .001-.002" every time. With lubing the cases, they do lengthen over time, but much more slowly than when shooting them dry. My expectation is that at some point the working/re-positioning of the shoulder will require either annealing or they will crack. They haven't yet, but I haven't kept a count of how often they've been loaded.

  14. #54
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    I haven't reloaded for .30-30 since I got my beloved 336/.35 in the late 70s but both are spec'ed to the same modest pressure. I've never been one to swallow "conventional wisdom" without checking with my own tests. Experts say that "lever guns should be FL sized with each loading" but I tried neck sizing first. Understand that I dearly love my 336 but it's an early season deep woods hunting rifle so it's not something I shoot very often (I do my gun practice with a 39A/.22RF). That said, I soon got a hundred Remington cases from Midway and immediately started shooting and neck sizing with a Lee collet die.

    I've lost track of how many times those cases have been reloaded with 200 gr Remington and Hornady RN bullets chronographed to 2,050 fps over a full charge of IMR 4064; something on the order of 15 times I'd guess. I've lost maybe a couple dozen cases for various reasons but I'm still living with the originals.

    I found they they don't stretch much, they still shoot into 1 1/2 (or less) moa and they still feed and camber easily. No deer shot with it has needed a second set of in-and-out holes.

    Meaning, try starting with the standard "trim to length" (10 thou less than max). And try neck sizing until you actually need to FL size or trim again, if ever.

  15. #55
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    I haven't forgotten about this test or this thread. I'm planning to do an expanded test using the cases Mr Butler Ford sent me, as well as at least one other brand. I plan to both, shoot for accuracy, and test case life. Currently I'm thinking to set up on the range and load and fire all day, making the necessary recordings. It will be an interesting test when it comes to fruition.

  16. #56
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    Thanks for bumping this up. Interesting stuff.
    Don Verna


  17. #57
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    Good stuff this is. Never considered doing such evaluations, but there are some good points made. Haven't purchased any new brass since 2015, that being a 250 case batch of Star Line .357 Mag. They were used for a wildcat I dubbed the .30 Sneezer. In the process of forming the cases I lost two. Sorted into 50 round boxes I used but one for load development which involved two cast bullets and 10 different powders. To be clear, all loads were intended to be subsonic. I have fired more than 1,000 rounds with the combo using the first 48 cases. Cleaned with each firing, annealed after two firings and still have all the brass I started with.

    My other venture with frequently reloaded brass involved the .30-30, fired from a M94 Winchester and a T/C Contender Carbine. The brass was, in each case, assigned to a particular gun due to slight difference in case length. Brass was last purchased O/A the year 2000 and included WW, R-P and Hornady brands. Have no idea how many times any of the brass has been reloaded, but only 300 of my ~800 pieces of brass have been fired. I did not begin annealing until around 2012, nor did I shoot cast bullets until about 2017. I used Lee collet dies for the Contender and RCBS dies for the levermatic. Never have I lost a case due to a split neck. I rolled crimped for the M94, no crimp for the Contender. YMMV...
    I have danced with the Devil. She had excellent attorneys.

  18. #58
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    Just wanted to add that many moons ago, Larry Gibson did a test using the RCBS X-dies and that prompted me to get a set. IIRC he tested .308 cases. My searching talents are one of many talents that are lacking and cannot find the post. But case life was excellent.

    My planned testing never materialized but I might get to it this year.
    Don Verna


  19. #59
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    If you had annealed to the shoulder, they would have lasted longer. Problem you missed. The chamber and the sizer die are NOT the same at the shoulder. Shoulder gets sized, then blown out to another shape. Smoke or color the shoulder of a sized case, cycle through the rifle. You'll see where the chamber hits.
    Whatever!

  20. #60
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    Long ago I kept track of loading life of 30-30's in a Marlin 336, I was well over 20 when I stopped counting. The low pressure of the 30-30 along with the rim allows the case to survive. Rimless cases can get shortened by the firing pin blow, and/or stretched by the pressure, so are more difficult to work with. Careful sizing and mild pressures can make a big difference for any case life, but the 30-30 and 32 Special, 45-70, 38-55 with their rims and mild pressures just hold up better than most.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check