45 Colt Chronograph Results for Rifle vs Revolver, Smokeless vs BP.

[greenjoytj]

45 Colt Chronograph Results for Rifle vs Revolver with Smokeless vs GOEX Black Powder

The Cartridge Recipe

Brass: Starline 45 Colt at 1.270”.
Note - 95% of all my Starline brass was shorter than the “trim to length “ of 1.275” right out of the bag!

Primer: CCI 350 this is a magnum strength primer, used to get a more complete powder burn with both powder types.

Bullet: 264 grain cast with Rotometals 20:1 lead:tin alloy from a SAECO #955 mold, sized .452” and lubed with homemade Emmerts Improved.

Powder: Hodgdon’s CFE-Pistol 9.3 grains weight checked on 2 RCBS Chargemaster 1500’s + an RCBS 1010.

May 16, 2019. Shooting Chrony set up ~10 feet in front of the muzzle. Temperature ~17*C

The Firearms

Rifle: 2018 Shot Show Special a Miroku built Winchester 1873 Deluxe Sporting Rifle in 45 Colt, 24” barrel.

Revolver: One from a pair of Ruger SASS Edition in 45 Colt with 5.5” barrel.

Chronograph Results for Hodgdon’s CFE-Pistol smokeless powder in fps
9.3 grains of Hodgdon’s CFE-Pistol smokeless powder.
The smokeless test was fired first.

Rifle average of 3 averages is: 1244.6 fps.
Revolver avg. of 2 averages is: 1007.5 fps.

With CFE-Pistol the rifle is 237.1 fps faster than the revolver.
This was a surprise as I was expecting the difference to be only in the 140 to 200 fps range.

Chronograph Results for Black Powder in fps

The only change made to the cartridge recipe was to substitute 34.9 grains of GOEX 2fg Black Powder weight checked on 2 RCBS Chargemaster 1500’s + an RCBS 1010.

Rifle: low 1037, high 1118, Avg. 1092, E.S. 80.8, S.D. 22.15

Revolver: low 740.5, high 793.6, Avg. 767.8, E.S. 53.12, S.D. 15.16
low 739.7, high 785.7, Avg. 761.3, E.S. 45.96, S.D. 15.81

With BP the rifle is 327.45 fps faster than the revolvers avg. of the averages.
This was a surprise as I was expecting the difference to be in the 140 to 200 range.

[kens]

Was that a full case of black powder?
I have to ask because BP is measured volume not weight.
A BP powder measure says grains, but it is not weighed grains, it a grains of volume.

[Harter66]

The 45 Colts in a 7.5" BlackHawk and 16" Rossi M92' demonstrated 210-240 fps difference with Unique and H110 .
Gains in a 20" were 230-280 fps .

Accuracy was another matter all together , and another discussion entirely .

I'm happy to see guys working on one load for rifles and like cambered pistols .

[indian joe]

With BP the rifle is 327.45 fps faster than the revolvers avg. of the averages.
This was a surprise as I was expecting the difference to be in the 140 to 200 range.[/QUOTE]

that maybe would change with a change of grade, FFg massively favours the rifle here

[Wheelguns 1961]

Did you size the brass before measuring it? I had some brand new starline .327 brass that grew .003- .004 when sized.

[Chill Wills]

A very nice test, simple and to the point with useful data.
Well done!

The early 45 Colt Army load was 40 grains FFF by weight. A very hard hitting load. Early 1873 cases were able to hold more powder than modern.
Crack open BP Goverment 45-70 loads and you will find 70 grains of BP in them too. Powder density changes but weight is a constant.

[bigted]

I would have to agree with the powder granulation. I betcha that GOEX Old E in 3Fg granulation would put the rifle and revolver closer together. The 3Fg is very consistant in the 45 Colt. Especially in revolvers.

I agree with the above. Wanna have a nice surprise ... load that 40 grains in a case ... compress till you can seat your 230 or 255 grain boolit. This IS energetic. Very fun to shoot in revolver or rifle ... oh yea ... that 40 grains should be Swiss or Old E 3Fg powder. You gotta try this to appreciate the why of the US Army demanding a lesser load for the troops

[greenjoytj]

Was that a full case of black powder?
I have to ask because BP is measured volume not weight.
A BP powder measure says grains, but it is not weighed grains, it a grains of volume.

The above statement is complete nonsense. How do you think the volume measure got calibrated? Yes once a volume was calibrated to a known weight, the volume measure could be relied upon to dispense powder very close to the value it was calibrated against. Till the powder changed or the hands that did the dipping.
There is no such thing as grains of volume.

A true dry volume measurement is 3 diemensional it has length and width height.
Example cubic centimetres, cubic inches. Bushels of wheat. etc....

[greenjoytj]

Did you size the brass before measuring it? I had some brand new starline .327 brass that grew .003- .004 when sized.

I always size then measure for length. I suspect I was sold factory seconds.

[greenjoytj]

Early 1873 cases were able to hold more powder than modern.

Our modern solid head cases may not hold as much powder as old Bennet primed cases. But the reduced case volume in modern cases should means we don’t need as much powder to achieve the same pressure.

[Chill Wills]

Same pressure, Yes. However, pressure and velocity are independent.

[bigted]

All I know is that in loading 30, 35 and 40 grains of 3f black powder is three different velocities and power. Compression is different but take my word here ... load 30 grains in a few and load 40 grains in others and the difference will be readily apparent upon the gentle yank of the trigger.

And the volume thing ... never was a "VOLUME" thing till the Pyro-crud came into being. It being very lite in comparison to real black powder ... THEY [ the makers of Pyrodex ] instructed folks that wanted to use their product ... to use volume to volume instead of grain for grain as a grain of Pyro is much more powder and power then an equal grain weight of real black powder.

Since then, the controversy of volume versus weight has been an issue with some folks.

[Grapeshot]

Greenjoytj says: "The above statement is complete nonsense. How do you think the volume measure got calibrated? Yes once a volume was calibrated to a known weight, the volume measure could be relied upon to dispense powder very close to the value it was calibrated against. Till the powder changed or the hands that did the dipping.
There is no such thing as grains of volume.

A true dry volume measurement is 3 dimensional it has length and width height.
Example cubic centimetres, cubic inches. Bushels of wheat. etc...."


Finally! I agree 100%, A given measure throws a given WEIGHT of powder. Once it is calibrated for that volume to deliver a desired weight of powder it will not change much as stated.

[greenjoytj]

More chrono data to add to post #1.
Same firearms were used.
15 August 2019, temperature - a hot day ~ 27* C

3 fg Old Eynsford BP, 35 grains, 2 ten shot strings results for each firearm.

Rifle M73: 3 fg Old E low 1203, high 1241, Avg. 1229, E.S. 37.29, S.D. 12.44
3 fg Old E low 1214, high 1246, Avg. 1232, E.S. 32.40, S.D. 9.79

Revolver: #39 3 fg Old E low 887.1, high 945.9, Avg. 922.2, E.S. 64.15, S.D. 22.24
3 fg Old E low 880.1, high 1003, Avg. 922.7, E.S. 123.6, S.D. 32.87

Revolver: #40 3 fg Old E low 925.1, high 951.8 , Avg. 939.5, E.S. 26.77, S.D. 9.0
3 fg Old E low 890.6, high 953.5 , Avg. 915.0 , E.S. 62.86, S.D. 18.78

In my rifles 24” barrel 35 grs of 3 fg Old Eynsford produced 138 fps more than 34.9 grs of 2 fg GOEX.
In my revolvers 5.5” barrel 35 grs. 3 fg Old Eynsford produced 160 fps more than 34.9 grs. of 2 fg GOEX

[John Boy]

Nice write up

[frogleg]

Thanks this is very nice as I have been loading CFE Pistol in 45 colt for 24" 73 Win and 71/2" Colt clone and wondering what vel. I could really expect.