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Thread: 3d Printed Shotgun Wads

  1. #41
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Randy... sorta! I started reading the book but as mentioned, I have been distracted by archery for a while now. We had our big shoot last weekend (3 day weekend here so 3 day shoot). All my recent effort has gone into that lately. It paid off though! I took 1st place in mens selfbow which is not a huge accomplishment since the field was only 7 but better, my score was competitive with the laminated recurve and long bow/carbon arrow shooters. I shoot a home made yew flatbow with home made self nocked wood arrows so when I can score up with the guys using laminated bows and carbon arrows I feel pretty good.

    Most importantly though it was a terrific weekend meeting up with old archery friends again. This is a shoot I do not like to miss and don't very often... like twice in 20 years.

    Now that's done I actually have one more shoot (maybe a couple yet). The North American Longbow Safari is coming up in July as well and I am not going to miss that one. It'll put a dent in my shotgun training and slug shooting but I'm going!

    I'll get some slug shooting done for sure and I will read the book for sure along with doing some dry practice. I will read through the book to absorb what I can then do the dry practice after. I likely won't be spending enough time in the next month to be a super proficient "threat" with my slug gun though... but I'll get there!

    Nope, no Memorial day but we did celebrate Queen Victoria's birthday last weekend. I celebrated at the archery range!

    Longbow

  2. #42
    USMC 77, USRA 79


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    Awwww LB.. congrats are in order, but without pics... It didn’t...
    Any technology not understood, can seem like Magic!!!

    I will love the Lord with all my heart, all my soul, and all my mind.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master

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    Kent, figure out how to put a radius fletching on these lead slugs when they exit the bore and all will be good!
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
    Leonard Ravenhill

  4. #44
    Boolit Grand Master

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    The only pic I have:

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    That's me in the back 3rd from right. All wood bow shooters except the dog.

    It was a great weekend and a great bunch of shooters. This was one of the best turnouts we've had. This is an all traditional shoot so recurves, longbows and wood bows only. Everyone in the group photo except Gina (the little lady in the middle) made their own bow. Her husband made both their bows. The dog... well what can I say!?! He was fun though.

    Longbow

  5. #45
    USMC 77, USRA 79


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    Now THAATTTT is an awesome picture sir... very awesome!!!
    Any technology not understood, can seem like Magic!!!

    I will love the Lord with all my heart, all my soul, and all my mind.

  6. #46
    Boolit Bub
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    Sorry for the delay. It took me longer than I thought to get my 3d printer settings dialed in to get me tolerances that I was comfortable shooting (Nylon can be a tricky material to print) I have some preliminary results. Please don't make fun of my groups too much. The 1st two are common store bought slugs to give you a feel for my general level of shooting (not great but I'm learning). I was only able to print enough parts for 5 wadcutter style slugs and 3 round nose slugs for this outing but now that I have things sorted out I should be able to print enough to get more solid data in the next week or so. These are the results for now. Make of them what you will. All shots are at 50 yards and it was pretty windy out today (17 mph wind)...my excuse for any flyers or any other type of poor shooting.


    1st A 3 shot group with Remington "Slugger" Slugs
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    2nd a 3 shot group with Truball Slugs.
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    3rd a 5 shot group with the Lyman 525 slug replacing birdshot with the slug in cheap Walmart birdshot shells, as previously described in this post. The sabot in this case is the shotcup.
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    4th a 5 shot group with the Lyman 525 slug using cheap Walmart birdshot shells, removing the shotcup and using the 3d printed wadcutter cap on the top and 3d printed skirt on the bottom. It looks like the shot in the upper left may be a flyer. I will need more data to say for sure.
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    5th a 3 shot group with the Lyman 525 slug using cheap Walmart birdshot shells, removing the shotcup and using the 3d printed rounded cap (like a round nose pellet) on the top and 3d printed skirt on the bottom, please note the 3rd shot on the bottom here.
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    I printed in red nylon and didn't see any caps or skirts out on the range try as I might to locate them. As far as I can tell they made it along with the slugs to the target and are buried in the berm along with the slugs. Also, it appears to me that the diameter of the holes from the slugs with 3d printed caps and skirts are larger.
    Last edited by mikehill85; 05-25-2019 at 09:06 PM.

  7. #47
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Looks pretty good to me! The Remington Sluggers and Tru-Balls did quite well which is not a surprise. I've said many times if I could get the same accuracy as factory Fosters with my home cast slugs I'd be happy!

    Your full bore wadcutters looked to do quite well excepting the flier. Even with it the group isn't bad but if it was with the other 4 that would be pretty impressive.

    Remind me... you are shooting smoothbore right?

    To be honest I would have thought the round nose cap would do better but so far a 3 shot group doesn't prove a lot. If everything else was the same except for caps it may be indicative though. If you get the same sort of grouping with that next time then I'd say it's one to leave behind.

    I'd say you are off to a good start and certainly worth pursuing with more 50 yard groups then moving out to maybe 75 yards to see how groups hold up. That transonic instability thing may rear its head at some point.

    Did you check fit of the Walmart shotcups and Lyman slugs? I'm guessing from the relatively poor accuracy of that group they weren't a really good fit.

    Also, how are you opening crimps? Re-crimping ~ roll crimp? Fold crimp?

    Interesting results! I'll be watching for more here!

    By the way, my apologies for the archery thread drift.

    Longbow

  8. #48
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    Looks pretty good to me! The Remington Sluggers and Tru-Balls did quite well which is not a surprise. I've said many times if I could get the same accuracy as factory Fosters with my home cast slugs I'd be happy!

    Your full bore wadcutters looked to do quite well excepting the flier. Even with it the group isn't bad but if it was with the other 4 that would be pretty impressive.

    Remind me... you are shooting smoothbore right?

    To be honest I would have thought the round nose cap would do better but so far a 3 shot group doesn't prove a lot. If everything else was the same except for caps it may be indicative though. If you get the same sort of grouping with that next time then I'd say it's one to leave behind.

    I'd say you are off to a good start and certainly worth pursuing with more 50 yard groups then moving out to maybe 75 yards to see how groups hold up. That transonic instability thing may rear its head at some point.

    Did you check fit of the Walmart shotcups and Lyman slugs? I'm guessing from the relatively poor accuracy of that group they weren't a really good fit.

    Also, how are you opening crimps? Re-crimping ~ roll crimp? Fold crimp?

    Interesting results! I'll be watching for more here!

    By the way, my apologies for the archery thread drift.

    Longbow
    Yeah, it's really unfortunate that I wasn't able to print more of the rounded caps. Also, the performance may not be indicative of their ideal performance. For one thing I printed these off in a rush and didn't print supports which means there was an unsupported area where the printer printed in the air, leaving a bunch of stringy filaments where the nose of the slug meets the back of the cap (the cap may have shifted positions after it left the barrel leading to inaccuracy). Also, I super glued all the parts on to the slugs but for the round nose slugs I just did it this morning so it's quite possible they weren't performing as well as they could because the glue didn't have time to fully cure, in any case, we'll see. I have high hopes for the round nose slugs. They should result in less drag at the nose of the slug which you'd think would aid in stability since they are drag stabilized at the tail. In the worst case, you'd think they would stay above the sound barrier for longer.

    Yeah, the Lyman slugs don't fit very well in the Federal shotcups. Those shotcups are extremely thin and a uniform thickness all the way up. I am just opening the shells with a screwdriver to keep the crimp intact dumping out the birdshot and re-crimping them by re-folding that fold crimp. I actually don't have a press for fold crimps. I have a Russian hand crank roll crimping tool. I found that by applying pressure on the old fold crimp and rotating the roll crimping handle a couple of times I can actually get the fold crimps back into surprisingly decent shape (see photo below) It is super low tech and would generously be described as, frugal, I know, but seems to work okay.
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    It was pretty hilarious when the range officer at my Public range came over to me last year and said, hey, you can't shoot bird-shot here on the 50 yard range and I showed him they were slugs. He was so confused for a second but they were cool with it.

    I am shooting with a Mossberg 930 JM Pro with a Carlson's Rifled Choke Tube. Some people say rifled choke tubes don't do anything but in my experience they tighten up my groups (at least with this gun and these slugs) a bit. Obviously they aren't as good as a fully rifled barrel but those cost a lot more.

    That (potential) flier is a real bummer. That group would have been sick without it. Just as good, if not better than the Truball and Slugger slugs. Anyway, I shouldn't get ahead of myself because one 5 shot or one 3 shot group doesn't prove anything but hopefully we will get similar results next time with more groups to show it wasn't a fluke.

    Anyway, I just wanted to post where things stand now and also let you guys know I didn't blow myself up...Lol.

    Don't worry about the thread drift, bows are interesting too. Maybe a 3d printed tail could help stabilize the slug through the trans-sonic region so it might be useful info.
    Last edited by mikehill85; 05-25-2019 at 09:10 PM.

  9. #49
    Boolit Master


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    Mike, have you considered making one of the sabots with your 3-D printer in post #14, that would fit the Lyman slug? I think that may be a promising venture.
    Littlejack

  10. #50
    Boolit Bub
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    Another Update:

    I fired about 20 round nose cap lyman 525 slugs and 20 wadcutter nose cap lyman slugs today. Below are representative 3 shot groups from today's outing with a round nose slug group first and a wadcutter slug group second. The round nose group is 1.3" center to center. The wadcutter group is 1.5" center to center. It appears to me that the round nose group has cleaner holes (this was generally the case). The wadcutter groups almost seem to show some signs of instability/keyholing. It may be that the round cap is actually improving the ballistic coefficient of the slugs, keeping them over the sound barrier longer. All shots are at 50 yards from a Caldwell Tackdriver rest. As in the last test, I am replacing birdshot in Walmart federal shells with the Lyman slugs and 3d printed skirts and caps to bring them up to bore diameter. The only difference between the groups is the shape of the cap (round nose or wadcutter). This week I didn't find an 3d printed parts on the way up to the target (just like last week) but I did find a lot of parts in the berm. I believe they are making it all the way to the target. Also please note that the reason the round nose group is so low is that my gun is sighted in for Winchester 1600 fps 1 oz slugs. These slugs are traveling about 1200 fps or slightly less. By the time I shot the wadcutter slugs I was adjusting for the drop by aiming at the very top of the target.

    For my next test I will be trying to duplicate the Lightfield 2 part discarding sabot system.


    Round Nose 3 Shot Group (Below)
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    Wadcutter 3 Shot Group (Below)
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  11. #51
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlejack View Post
    Mike, have you considered making one of the sabots with your 3-D printer in post #14, that would fit the Lyman slug? I think that may be a promising venture.
    Littlejack
    I haven't tried it yet. Now that I have tested the "skirt and cap" style I came up with I will try this. The one thing I am trying to determine with that design is what the purpose of the lead tabs on the side of the Lightfield slugs is and how I can replicate this with my 3d printed design. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

  12. #52
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Looking pretty good I'd say! I am a bit surprised those caps stay on but you've got the fit sorted out and it works so that's good.

    I am sure the tabs on the Lightfield are to ensure the wad gripping the rifling transfers spin to the slug (no skidding). I'd suggest knurling the Lyman slugs to roughen up the surface. If you don't have a knurler then just roll the slugs under a coarse file and that will raise the surface giving more grip to the wad. A good tight fit is probably good enough but roughing them up a bit certainly won't hurt... along with a tight fit.

    On the 3D printed sabot, I was going to say just to make a tapered cylinder more or less replicating the wad petals of a trap wad because it is simple and works but... you have an opportunity to make a form fitting sabot that will support the skirt so no skirt collapse even with soft slugs. I think that has to be a benefit.

    You should be able to easily print 2 or 3 piece sabots to form fit the slug and a bit oversize for groove diameter. I think I'd be inclined to make a 2 or 3 piece sabot that sits on top of a commercial trap wad cushion leg after cutting the petals off or buy the BPI brush wads (or equivalent) with no shotcup and sit your sabot on that. I think it is easier to do that than try to make a complete sabot with gas seal. But there I go taking over your project again!

    This is interesting stuff! I wish I had a 3D printer and this just might get me into that game. You a potential enabler!

    Longbow

  13. #53
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    Looking pretty good I'd say! I am a bit surprised those caps stay on but you've got the fit sorted out and it works so that's good.

    I am sure the tabs on the Lightfield are to ensure the wad gripping the rifling transfers spin to the slug (no skidding). I'd suggest knurling the Lyman slugs to roughen up the surface. If you don't have a knurler then just roll the slugs under a coarse file and that will raise the surface giving more grip to the wad. A good tight fit is probably good enough but roughing them up a bit certainly won't hurt... along with a tight fit.

    On the 3D printed sabot, I was going to say just to make a tapered cylinder more or less replicating the wad petals of a trap wad because it is simple and works but... you have an opportunity to make a form fitting sabot that will support the skirt so no skirt collapse even with soft slugs. I think that has to be a benefit.

    You should be able to easily print 2 or 3 piece sabots to form fit the slug and a bit oversize for groove diameter. I think I'd be inclined to make a 2 or 3 piece sabot that sits on top of a commercial trap wad cushion leg after cutting the petals off or buy the BPI brush wads (or equivalent) with no shotcup and sit your sabot on that. I think it is easier to do that than try to make a complete sabot with gas seal. But there I go taking over your project again!

    This is interesting stuff! I wish I had a 3D printer and this just might get me into that game. You a potential enabler!

    Longbow
    Quite honestly, I'm surprised they stayed on too. There are thousands of G of acceleration we are dealing with. I wish I had a high speed camera to see if the 3d printed parts are getting damaged in the barrel at all. My barrel was exceptionally clean this time around which would tend to indicate things are holding up nicely. I didn't see any lead streaking in the barrel at all. That said, the parts in the berm were quite shredded but then again the slugs are obviously horribly deformed upon impact and also dragging the skirt portion through a tunnel of dirt, so you can't tell much from that.

    Please see below. As you can see the post that fills the cavity (truncated cone) broke off from the skirt but it well could be from going through the target and then boring a tunnel into the dirt/rock berm. The fact the skirt with a hole in it (where that truncated cone ripped out of the skirt) was found the berm too suggests as much. The nose on the slug also shows massive expansion (tough to show in photos but the front expanded from 0.68" to 0.975") so it isn't at all surprising that the ring on the nose caps (which bring the slug up to bore diameter) blew up and came off in the berm as well.

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    This is the form fitting sabot so far. I flared the nose at the front to try to encourage the air pressure to slit the wad apart. Any thoughts/recommendations would be welcomed.

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    BTW, do you have a link to those brush wads? That sounds like it might be an easy solution or in the worst case something to copy.

    Re the friction fit, I think if I print the wad perpendicular to the direction of travel of the slug the print layers will naturally give the sabot some extra grip so maybe knurling isn't necessary for a good grip (assuming my tolerances are tight enough).
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG-2785.jpg  
    Last edited by mikehill85; 06-02-2019 at 08:36 PM.

  14. #54
    Boolit Master


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    Mike:
    Personally, I don't think there will be any problem with the sabot breaking away. I believe that the air hitting the meplat (front) of the slug will separate the sabot just fine. If that's not enough for you, there's always that cyntrifical force thing. Lol

  15. #55
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Brush wad:

    https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Or...tinfo/072BW12/

    Other wads:

    Stackable wads:

    https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Ga...s/products/97/

    That sabot is looking awfully nice!

    Yes, if you have a tight fit knurling shouldn't be necessary. However, it wouldn't hurt to try rolling the slugs under a coarse file if there is any doubt or if accuracy isn't what you expect... just to be sure there is no slippage in the sabot.

    You are making me want a 3D printer!

    Longbow

  16. #56
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by littlejack View Post
    Mike:
    Personally, I don't think there will be any problem with the sabot breaking away. I believe that the air hitting the meplat (front) of the slug will separate the sabot just fine. If that's not enough for you, there's always that cyntrifical force thing. Lol
    You are probably right. I will probably just print this guy and see how the fit is. It's hard for me to conceptualize supersonic ballistics but in the worst case, I do have a rifled choke tube so that should allow for separation as you pointed out.

  17. #57
    Boolit Bub
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    Quote Originally Posted by longbow View Post
    Brush wad:

    https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Or...tinfo/072BW12/

    Other wads:

    Stackable wads:

    https://www.ballisticproducts.com/Ga...s/products/97/

    That sabot is looking awfully nice!

    Yes, if you have a tight fit knurling shouldn't be necessary. However, it wouldn't hurt to try rolling the slugs under a coarse file if there is any doubt or if accuracy isn't what you expect... just to be sure there is no slippage in the sabot.

    You are making me want a 3D printer!

    Longbow
    I'll see how the fit is but it's probably a good idea to roughen the surface on the 1st batch as you're suggesting and if things go well see if I can avoid it on the next batch (just to save some time).

    I'm not sure if this is the case where you live in BC but I used to live in Ontario and a lot of the public libraries were starting to get 3d printers. You just needed to take a basic workshop on how to use them. No one reads anymore so they were trying to encourage people to come in. If it's an option it might be worth checking out. It is a blackhole of time in and of itself though. Lol.

    FYI, Below is what one of the wadcutter skirt and cap slugs looks like in red Nylon.
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    Last edited by mikehill85; 06-03-2019 at 11:01 PM.

  18. #58
    Boolit Master


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    Mike:
    That skirt and cap looks really nice. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work.
    Very interested in seeing your 3-D sabot. And also the range report.
    Regards

  19. #59
    Boolit Bub
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    Update

    I finally got around to printing and testing the "lightfield" style sabot on the slugs this week. The results are pretty decent. Below shows part of the preparation and some 5 shot groups at 50 yards. Again, I was just using the el cheapo walmart Federal 8 shot birdshot shells, melting down the lead, casting Lyman slugs and using 3d printed parts to get a tighter fit in the barrel.

    The bottom of the slugs with 3d printed filler

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    The top of the slugs

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    The slugs inside the shells

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    Final roll crimped shell with slug

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    A 2.52" 5 shot group.

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    A 2.04" 5 shot group.

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    Last edited by mikehill85; 08-04-2019 at 02:10 PM.

  20. #60
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikehill85 View Post
    Well I thought the back would stay in place by the pressure at the back and the front would be forced in place by friction. I also planned on using steel wool to rough up the surfaces they are in contact with and super gluing them in place. With the extreme G forces it may not make any difference whatsoever but I thought I’d try it.
    No need to use glue. there will be plenty of pressure to hold the cap and base in place. Years ago I used Winchester AA wads for 7/8 oz loads which had a dome to spread the shot pattern. The dome wedged into the base of the slug. They often did the trip together and accuracy was amazing out to 100 yards+.

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BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
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GC Gas Check