Enfield no.4 conversion to 45ACP

[mickbr]

Hi folks, I'm not a pistol guy or experienced bullet caster and was hoping someone could help with some questions.

I have an old beaten up No.4 that I would like to breathe some use into. Found one of these interesting conversion kits. 45ACP isn't a calibre I have previously owned but always wanted to. There was actually a war time gun which you folks probably know called the delilse carbine in 45ACP coverted enfields. I'll also get some 45 super brass as well so I can push it a bit faster from time to time. Looking at a 20-22" barrel which is unecessary for a small case but its mostly to keep the noise away from me. My ears dont do so well with noise, even with earplugs these days.

I'd like a heavier cast bullet for hunting that still makes sense in the short case- something designed for 45colt- maybe a 255grain with decent meplat? Also wanted to double check that the calibres really are the same? is one .451 and one .452? Are they interchangeable, would accuracy be effected greatly one way or the other? I am thinking a decent hardcast running an extra couple hundred fps than standard 45 colt will be a decent killer on medium game. Thanks for any thoughts.

Regards barrels is 1:16 the normal twist rate for these carts? the maker said its what he does his 45 barrels in. This would be for 185-230 grains bullets and maybe the 255 grain as well. Velocity range 800-1200fps or so.

I'd like to run some of the minimal loads hodgson etc lists, for plinking, eg 4 to 4.5 grains behind various bullets at the 800fps range. Worried about jacketed bullets(and maybe cast) exiting as I know low low loads in cowboy shooting can sometimes squib in rifle length barrels. I'd assume factory 45ACP wouldn't be much heavier powder loads anyway( or would it?)and these work in 16-18" barrels..

Random one, anyone ever pulled a bullet and measured the factory powder weights for any 45ACP? probably not but thought I would ask.

Thanks in advance. I wasn't sure which forum to put this in but its a military rifle converted to 45ACP which does have a wartime precedent so hopefully its not too out of place.

[Der Gebirgsjager]

If memory serves correctly, there's a long-time member of the forum that has done a .45 ACP Lee Enfield conversion, and has posted photos of it several times. I can't recall if it was a No.1 or No.4 rifle that he used. Perhaps he'll see your thread and reply, or perhaps you can find some info
through the search feature.

You've included so many questions and raised so many possibilities that I'll just make a few random comments.

I don't think that a hot .45 will have any trouble making it out of a 22 inch barrel. 19 - 24 inches are pretty common for .45 Colt and .44 WCF lever action barrels, so why not a .45 ACP? But, addressing your fear of squibs, that's really up to you, isn't it, since you'll be doing the loading. You'll just have to check the bore after each shot that you feel is questionable until you have developed a load that you're certain will work every time.

The actual bullet diameters (.451 or .452?) is a variable that you can just about have any way you want it when you construct the rifle. Used to be that .45 Colt was .454 and .45 ACP was .452. Now days both usually come in .452, and that's the bore size I'd expect to likely find for commercial sale, but if you run across something that is a little different and like it, then you can adjust your bullets up or down in diameter to fit, which is one of the nice things about casting your bullets. There is always the sizer/luber machine or the opportunity to acquire another mold.

As for the twist, again that's up to you and your research, determining what will be best for the bullet/bullets you wish to use, but unless you're going to order a custom barrel then you'll find the ready made barrels to come just a few ways that are usually determined to be a happy compromise on what firearms manufacturers and customers have ordered in the past.

You mentioned the De Lisle carbine, and that and the conversion that has previously appeared on this forum required some fancy gunsmithing to make them work as repeaters. Your best bet might be to alter the weapon to used 1911 ten round magazines. This will require a lot of work on the rifle's magazine well to securely hold the magazine and present the topmost cartridge to be fed to the bolt, and because of the length of the action it will need to be closer to the chamber. It will be quite a task.......much easier to make a single shot......but obviously it can be done.

DG

[Larry Gibson]

I've built several 45 ACP carbines on Mauser M93 and M98 actions. I also have experience with on a #4 action. The Rhineland conversion kits were used. You've picked the best action for the conversion as the SMLE actions don't have the feed issues the Mausers have. The conversion barrels we used had 16" twists and were 16 1/4" long. The 16" twist is normal for the 45 ACP.

As to 45 ammunition; I pressure test a lot of it and always break down at least one round of each load to see what kind of powder is used and how much [style of powder and weight of charge]. I have shot numerous factory and milsurp through mine along with a plethora of cast loads with 185 up through 255 gr cast bullets. Be advised there is some pretty poor 45 ACP "factory" ammo out there as to internal ballistics and accuracy, especially among generic 230 Hardball loads.

My current load is the Lee 230 TC (with lube groove) over 5 gr Bullseye. It runs 1070 fps and shoots 2" or less all day long at 50 yards. It also shoots excellently in my M1911s and revolvers. The most accurate cast bullet, especially up through 1400+ fps is a Lyman GC'd 452490 which has a "Keith" SWC profile . Cast of COWWs +2% tin they run 240 gr fully dressed. They shoot as accurately as do jacketed 185 and 200 gr XTPs at right at 1" +/- at 50 yards. I also shoot a lot of 195 - 205 gr cast bullets (my own and some commercial) over 5 gr of Bullseye which is my "standard" 45 ACP load with cast bullets.

Here is a couple Mauser conversions I did. Mine is in the Bishop/Fajen sporter stock

Attachment 241798

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[Outpost75]

I went a different route and had John Taylor fabricate a .45 ACP/.455 barrel to fit my small frame .44 shotgun. I’ve had great fun shooting .455s in the .45 ACP barrel.. This is possible because John roughed the chamber with his .38-40 reamer, so that the barrel has a .525” diameter rim seat. I wanted this feature initially to enable firing shot loads assembled in Starline 5 in 1 Blank cases. It turned out to work splendidly with .455s too!

While the .455 rim is thinner than the .38-40, John’s clever rimless extractor holds and headspaces .455s well enough to be reliably set off by the shotgun firing pin. The .45 Colt H&R Handi Rifle will not accept Hornady, Fiocchi or Starline .455s because their larger rim diameters are too large to fit into the usual .512” diameter .45 Colt rim seat.

Kynoch 1942 WW2 surplus .455 MkVI FMJ bullets reliably exit the 20-inch rifle barrel and are almost silent. More like a "thunk!" than a BANG~! I simply love being able to shoot either .45 ACPs or .455s in the same barrel as a low-noise, "silent without silencer" BLOOPER rifle! The .455 is noticeably quieter than the .45 Colt. The same goes for firing “wadcutter” vs. “hardball” charges in the .45 ACP.

In .45 ACP I use mostly 230-grain lead Saeco #954 FN Cowboy slugs and 4.5 grs. of Bullseye, which give 980 f.p.s., in the rifle vs. 820 in an M1911 or 4-5/8” Ruger Blackhawk and 780 fps in the 5-1/2” S&W .45 Hand Ejector Military.

In the .455 I load Accurate 45-264H in Starline .455 brass with 3.5 grains of Bullseye or 3.7 grains of 452AA which gives 700 fps from my Colt New Service 5-1/2” revolver and 800 fps from the Infamous Bunny Gun.

I get 1" groups at 25 yards firing off sandbags with iron sights. Dispersion remains in proportion to the range, about 4” at 100 yards with good cast bullet handloads and about a foot at 100 yards with ordinary GI Ball ammo, about the same as a Thompson on semi.

A single-shot rifle is much easier to hit with than a pistol or revolver, thanks to peep sights and a longer sight radius. The time of flight enables its report to fade just as you hear the bullet "ding!" against steel, as the Scheutzen troll swings his little hammer with joy each time.

A tiny, 5-pound, bull-barreled, 34" long .45 ACP single-shot rifle won’t appeal to those who require a satisfying firearm to make shoulder ache or your ears ring. If you enjoy being able to watch big bullets fly downrange and comfortably firing occasional rounds outdoors at varmints without ear protection, consider a rifle chambered for any common handgun caliber, firing subsonic cowboy loads. “Blooper” rifles are utilitarian “sleepers” of the firearms world and are loads of fun to have handy. Mine are my most used “adult toys.”

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[mickbr]

Thanks fellas for the comprehensive replies. I should spend more time on this forum and think I will. The kit I have is Special Interest Arms conversion kit, which is now out of production I believe. Anyone heard of this one?

Larry, nice guns there ! The stock has nice lines, could not have picked a better one for that length of barrel. Its easy on the eyes. Thanks for the info on loads and factory ammo, sounds like you are like me, I like to know whats inside things too

Most of my shooting will be done with loads around 1000fps as well. Any random one is wondering whether the barrel length is adding velocity to that bullseye load. That is if fired from a pistol would it be less? I'm thinking carbine lengths will add velocity, even when charges are small. I ran 158grain poly coated 357 cast( shop bought) from a 22 inch lever over only 3-4 grains of original clays and from memory they were still gaining 100-110fps over revolver. Not much, but at least they weren't slowing down in the barrel. I'll probably end up running a bit of everything through the gun and doing some comparisons.

2" accuracy at 50 yards would be great, probably eclipses anything I have gotten out of my lever action with reduced loads, though I wasn't crafting my own cast loads for the gun I admit. 1" is wow! These things can shoot by the sounds.

[mickbr]

Thanks outpost75, I am still digesting your post, a lot of good information in there. I am likeminded regards noise levels, it seems the pistol cartridges in rifle barrels at subsonic levels are good for the ears.I was doing similar with my 357 lever and it saw some hunting with such loads but I'd like a little more bullet diametre from now on, hence this new gun.

So moderate velocity gains are still there with rifle barrel over pistol, that's good to know.

Can I ask you folks what sort of barrel weight and quality to go for? I can pretty much choose anything, lapped or otherwise. I'd like to develope some accuracy, without trying to turn it into any sort of bench target gun of course.

[Larry Gibson]

The Lee 230 TC/5 gr BE load mentioned gains about 150 fps +/- out of the 16" barrel vs a 5" barrel in my M1911 Colt Series 70 and Para Ord P-14. My +P load with a 185 or 200 gr XTP over 7.5 gr Unique runs about 250 fps faster out of the 16" barrel than the 5" barrels. Those both shoot 1" +/- at 50 yards.

I've found commercial cast with a pronounced BB don't shoot well out of the 16" barrel at much over 900 fps. PB'd bullets with a sharp square bottom edge shoot fine upwards of 100 fps. Above that the GC'd cast bullet is superior. A 185 gr cast over 3.5 gr BE is more like a 22LR......more fun than a guy should be allowed......

I always thought I went through a lot of 45 ACP ammo with my M1911s.......until I made the carbine........thank God for 6 cavity moulds and a Dillon progressive press.....

[Outpost75]

...Can I ask you folks what sort of barrel weight and quality to go for? I can pretty much choose anything, lapped or otherwise. I'd like to develope some accuracy, without trying to turn it into any sort of bench target gun of course.

John used the Green Mountain "gunsmith special" blanks in 9mm 1:10" twist and .45 1:20" twist for my .38 S&W, .45 ACP/.455 and .45 Colt Bunny Gun barrels.

In .45 Cal. he left the barrels 0.9" diameter, cylindrical for their full 20" length and the iron-sighted rifles weigh 5 pounds. On my .38 S&W "Lettuce Protector" the barrel was tapered to about the contour of an '03 Springfield and at 20" the gun weighs 4-1/2 pounds with iron sights. The guns are capable of better accuracy than my 70-year-old eyes and iron sights will allow, but I did put a 4X scope on one barrel for ammo testing and 2 inches at 50 yards with good cast bullets in revolver ammo is realistic.

An inch at 25 yards with iron sights is possible if your eyeballs are screwed in tight.

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[swheeler]

I'm not sure you will gain much velocity with a barrel over 18". 5.5 grs Win 231 and a 230 cast powder coated runs 830 fps out of 4.25" barrel and same load does 1000 fps out of 17.5" barrel, pretty quiet too.

[Kegcaissy]

Thanks fellas for the comprehensive replies. I should spend more time on this forum and think I will. The kit I have is Special Interest Arms conversion kit, which is now out of production I believe. Anyone heard of this one?

Larry, nice guns there ! The stock has nice lines, could not have picked a better one for that length of barrel. Its easy on the eyes. Thanks for the info on loads and factory ammo, sounds like you are like me, I like to know whats inside things too

Most of my shooting will be done with loads around 1000fps as well. Any random one is wondering whether the barrel length is adding velocity to that bullseye load. That is if fired from a pistol would it be less? I'm thinking carbine lengths will add velocity, even when charges are small. I ran 158grain poly coated 357 cast( shop bought) from a 22 inch lever over only 3-4 grains of original clays and from memory they were still gaining 100-110fps over revolver. Not much, but at least they weren't slowing down in the barrel. I'll probably end up running a bit of everything through the gun and doing some comparisons.

2" accuracy at 50 yards would be great, probably eclipses anything I have gotten out of my lever action with reduced loads, though I wasn't crafting my own cast loads for the gun I admit. 1" is wow! These things can shoot by the sounds.

lucky guy!!

i wish i could get one of their 45 enfield conversion up here...

[GhostHawk]

My Hipoint Carbine in .45acp has a roughly 18" barrel and has no problem spitting 230 gr cast lead over 5 grains of Red Dot. Yet to have one stick, or cause problems.

FYI I use .230 gr truncated cone at .452 and tend to shoot them as cast.

IMO pistol caliber carbines are the bee's knees and the .45acp is king of them all.
Cheap, easy to find brass, and shoot very well with modest amounts of Red Dot or similar fast powder. Easy to load, easy on the wallet and loads of fun at the range.

I don't think it gets any better than that.

[mickbr]

Yes the way I see it is its economical and easy for shooting for kids( and me : whilst also giving an old warhorse the chance to ride again. The enfield that is, well maybe both of us. I think I picked the right forum to ask. Can be difficult starting on new forums. You might have 15,000 posts on other forums and a lot of shooting experience but you get treated like a newb when you ask a question first time. Definetely not here, great replies. I picked the right one to ask as a lot of you fellas like the idea of 45 carbines, not to mention Larry having done two of the guns. Outpost75 seems to pop up everywhere too, I have seen him with those detailed replies on several forums. I'll do a build update here anyway. As to these kits the last batch were old sold off, but apparently Richard has been pulled out of semi-retirement before, it may be possible to do it again.

[curator]

Mickbr:

I have the Rhineland .45ACP conversion for my No.4Mk1 Lee Enfield rifle and really love it for low cost, reasonably quiet short range shooting. I do use .45 "Super" brass from Starline just to be on the safe side since I mostly load a 280 grain LBT LFN boolit at around 1200 fps. Accuracy is within 1.5MOA at 50 yards and fast follow-up shots. My only issue is the occasional lack of total ejection from the action since mine is one of he vary early models. No real issue as I can easily turn the gun 90 degrees on its side to get fired cases to fallout. Eventually, I will get a "can" for this to keep the noise factor even lower.

[mickbr]

BTw fellas whats the situation with using harder cast bullets in auto cartridges and type of crimping?

[Outpost75]

BTw fellas whats the situation with using harder cast bullets in auto cartridges and type of crimping?

I don't use hard alloy in my .45 ACPs, because all of mine are revolvers and cowboy rifles.

In the .45 ACP/.455 rifle John Taylor cut for me, I use the heavy, soft bullets cast about 8-10 BHN. I had John throat the rifle so that I can use full-diameter as-cast .455" bullets from Accurate molds made to fit the cylinder throats of my Colt New Service revolvers in .455, .45 ACP and .45 Colt.

Attachment 241860Attachment 241861

I use an old-style RCBS .45 Auto Rim seater which roll crimps. If you have dies for the .455 MkII you can use those. When firing my revolver handloads assembled using rimless .45 ACP brass, the cartridges actually headspace on the bullet! I am jamming the nose and pre-engraving into the origin of rifling, exactly the same as Eley Tenex in .22 match rifle. Using soft alloy unfired rounds can be extracted without telescoping or de-bulleting. Factory .45 ACP ammo headspaces normally on the case mouth, because the finished chamber was cut with an ordinary .45 ACP reamer to produce the square stop surface for the case mouth to headspace on.

By using a .38-40 reamer to rough the rifle chamber, the .456" shoulder diameter and 5-1/2 degree shoulder angle of the .38-40 reamer provide a rifle-type throat which permits seating full diameter revolver bullets out to preserve powder capacity. A chambered and extracted round looks like this:

Attachment 241859

[mickbr]

Mickbr:

I have the Rhineland .45ACP conversion for my No.4Mk1 Lee Enfield rifle and really love it for low cost, reasonably quiet short range shooting. I do use .45 "Super" brass from Starline just to be on the safe side since I mostly load a 280 grain LBT LFN boolit at around 1200 fps. Accuracy is within 1.5MOA at 50 yards and fast follow-up shots. My only issue is the occasional lack of total ejection from the action since mine is one of he vary early models. No real issue as I can easily turn the gun 90 degrees on its side to get fired cases to fallout. Eventually, I will get a "can" for this to keep the noise factor even lower.

Curator, I like the sound of that accuracy, if I can get near that I will be happy with the project. Btw is it a 16" barrel rhineland provides for their product? Would be good length to have suppressed. I can't hunt with them here which is why I am getting the GS to install a new longer barrel, reduces a bit of noise for me and the hunting dogs.

[GhostHawk]

FYI IMO you will never go wrong listening to Larry G and Outpost75. Both are time tested proven and good as gold in the bank.

[samari46]

Has anyone used a Argentine 1891 mauser action for conversion to 45 acp?. Probably use it as a single shot at first. Already has the correct size bolt face. Just wondering as I have a couple actions and cut down stocks I managed to squirrel away over the years. Have about 4 with bad barrels that I need to take off before the weather starts getting too hot to work in the garage. Usually cut the ring part on the barrel until it barely remains and usually the barrel comes off with a pipe wrench. Frank

[Mica_Hiebert]

I tried a special interest arms conversion for the Enfield and I could never get the extractor/ejector to work correctly. I finally traded the semi finished project for a beat up blackhawk in 41 mag.

[Tonto]

What a terrific thread folks, Thank you all!!! This has sparked my interest in a long gun in 45ACP, (40 S&W, 9mm....)