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Thread: How do you choose what parts to follow?

  1. #1
    Boolit Buddy Snow ninja's Avatar
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    How do you choose what parts to follow?

    Old Testament and New Testament.

    A post on another part of the forum makes me ask this. Which parts do you follow of the old testament and which ones do you not? And thusly, how do you choose?

    People love to quote the parts about what the laws say about homosexuality and adultery and "Eye for an eye". But leave out the other parts like sacrificing 2 turtle doves when a female has her period. And those of you that go out to eat after church on Sunday should probably stone your server cause they are working on the Sabbath.

    Seems to me that you shouldn't just be able to stick to some parts and not others. Some state that after Jesus, he did away with the old laws, but people still quote them regularly.

    So, where do you draw the line? I've always struggled with this aspect. Thank you.
    Do the best you can, with what you've got, where you're at. -Theodore Roosevelt

  2. #2
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    The Old Testament was for Israel as a contracted way to live. The Law contained components of ceremony (clean vs unclean, dietary rules, etc.), sacrifices and morality. It also contains the history of God's interaction with man in general and Israel specifically.

    With the coming of Jesus, the ceremony and sacrifices no longer apply to God's people: the Church. Additionally, the Law no longer applies as a way to live in order to please God. We please God with our faith in Christ which leads to a life no longer characterized by sin. The history of God and man is valuable in showing God's loving character.

    This leaves the moral commands of the Law. What does the Church do with them? God is still opposed to the immoral acts he prohibited in the Old Testament. God's people are still not to fornicate, murder, steal, hit their parents, practice homosexuality, etc. The big items are re-stated in the New Testament. In fact, all but one of the 10 Commandments are re-stated in the New Testament (keeping the Sabbath holy is not). Most importantly, Jesus summed up the moral components of the Law: "Love God with all your being and your neighbor as yourself." God will always expect this from his people and to not do so is sin.

    While the moral component of the Law has not changed, God's people no longer seek to be justified by following the Law. It is important to note that the Church is not charged with enforcing moral requirements in society as Israel was. What I mean is the Church does not stone adulterers or homosexuals.
    Last edited by Ickisrulz; 05-15-2019 at 08:09 AM.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    A very well thought out and accurate reply, especially about how the Church isn't taxed with enforcing God's law's. Some folks do still have a problem distinguishing between ritual and law.

  4. #4
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    Another issue when comparing the Old Testament to the New Testament is that some Christians have the idea that God changed from one to the other.

    People see the Old Testament as a history of God's wrath. While the Old Testament records acts of God's judgement and destruction, it also records God's patience in dealing with people, his repeated warnings and emotional pleadings for people to change their ways and preclude judgement. Additionally, people tend to overlook the fact that the removal of evil people and cultures was done to eliminate their continued harm to their neighbors and their adverse influence. The removal of evil is because of God's love.

    People tend to see the New Testament as solely a record of God's forgiveness and love. This overlooks the warnings to and promise of judgement for evil-doers. Jesus talked quite a bit about the final destruction of the unsaved as did the other New Testament writers. We also see the physical destruction of Ananias and Sapphira and some in the Corinthian church (1 Cor 11:30), as well as the prediction of the fall of Jerusalem (70 AD). So there's plenty of judgment in the New Testament.

    God has never and will never change.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master

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    They're all God's words chronicled by earlier prophets then thru Jesus' Apostles...

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    I do not follow the Old Testament, it was not intended for me. It was a specific Covenant with the 12 Tribes. In Ezekiel God compared the tribes to two whores, one being the 10 "Lost" Tribes, and the other to two Tribes, Judah and Benjamin.
    God divorced the 10 Tribes and punished the remaining two tribes. Almost exclusively Jesus taught Jews and all the Original Apostles were Jews who fellowshipped with Jews.
    Then God sent a Jew named Paul to preach/teach Salvation to non-Jews. So, I follow the New Covenant as proclaimed in the New Testament and pay special attention to the Gospels and Paul's instruction as well as the other letters/Books intended for those following The New Covenant.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Snow Ninja,

    I'll give you the Catholic reply:

    The Catholic Church uses both Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition as guides. So there is a tradition that is handed down through the generations that illuminates confusing Bible passages. Catholics do not believe that it is sufficient to sit in your living room and read Scripture and ask yourself, "What do I think this means?" If you do this you can open yourself up to one of the Devil's snares. Rather we read a scripture passage and ask, "what did they mean when they wrote this? What did past and present bishops and saints think it means?" Then there are entire libraries full of ancient writings from people who studied under the Apostles and other great theologians through the centuries. If you can trace a particular scripture interpretation through the centuries of writings within the church you have a safe bet that you've got the right interpretation.

    There is also something called Natural Law. Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI made a reference to this in his most recent letter concerning the scandals that have rocked the church. We often make silly references to something like Natural Law when we make statements like ". . . the 1911 as John Moses Browning intended. . ." What we are doing in those situations is mimicking a rationale that there is something intended in the nature of things. Thus we will say, "as God intended..." or "as Mother Nature intended. . ."

    Natural Law applies to all mankind regardless of creed and thus can be enforced regardless of creed. Thus, even though Sharia Law may demand that a father kill his dishonorable daughter - such a thing is still murder.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Modern people have a lot of trouble reconciling Old Testament rules vs. New Testament rules because too few ministers understand the differences or even try to explain it. That allows a LOT of unneccessary confusion. It's impossible to totally answer every aspect of the OP's question, that would require volumes of big books, the best we can do here is try to answer fragments of it.

    First thing we need to recognise is that God does not change but, from Adam/Eve to today, HIS revelation to man of what He wants our motivation and conduct to be has indeed changed. He loves us and for our salvation He only requires the right heart to be in us. There is no mandatory checklist of perfection for that, meaning we can't possibly "earn", "deserve" or "buy" our salvation, it's a perfect gift from Jesus to imperfect people who trust and love him as Lord.

    The OT is mostly a history of the Hebrews who were ruled by things to do or not do to gain God's favor. Didn't work, wasn't expected to work because He knew it's impossible for weak/fallible humans to accomplish anyway.

    The "Law of Moses", aka Ten Commandments, are the core of that and we fail even in that simple law. Therefore God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, devised a way for men to attain spiritual perfection by substituting the perfection of the Son to us through our willing faith/trust in the coming Messiah (the man God Man/Jesus).

    So we, the "Church", i.e., the body of Christ consisting of born again believers, Jew and Gentile, from the Day of Pentecost until the coming Rapture of the saints by faith follow a different set of rules based on the original Ten Rules save one.

    The concepts of the original ten laws are actually restated in the NT (all except the "Seventh Day Sabbath") so they apply to our blessings now. The stated rules are to be followed for later heavenly rewards but NOT for salvation so the old Hebrew rules of daily religious practices and temple sacrifice don't apply to us.

    If we read scripture for ourselves and basically understand to whom the varied rules apply, and for what purposes, most of the puzzlement fades away. I think.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1hole View Post
    Modern people have a lot of trouble reconciling Old Testament rules vs. New Testament rules because too few ministers understand the differences or even try to explain it. That allows a LOT of unneccessary confusion. It's impossible to totally answer every aspect of the OP's question, that would require volumes of big books, the best we can do here is try to answer fragments of it.

    First thing we need to recognise is that God does not change but, from Adam/Eve to today, HIS revelation to man of what He wants our motivation and conduct to be has indeed changed. He loves us and for our salvation He only requires the right heart to be in us. There is no mandatory checklist of perfection for that, meaning we can't possibly "earn", "deserve" or "buy" our salvation, it's a perfect gift from Jesus to imperfect people who trust and love him as Lord.

    The OT is mostly a history of the Hebrews who were ruled by things to do or not do to gain God's favor. Didn't work, wasn't expected to work because He knew it's impossible for weak/fallible humans to accomplish anyway.

    The "Law of Moses", aka Ten Commandments, are the core of that and we fail even in that simple law. Therefore God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit, devised a way for men to attain spiritual perfection by substituting the perfection of the Son to us through our willing faith/trust in the coming Messiah (the man God Man/Jesus).

    So we, the "Church", i.e., the body of Christ consisting of born again believers, Jew and Gentile, from the Day of Pentecost until the coming Rapture of the saints by faith follow a different set of rules based on the original Ten Rules save one.

    The concepts of the original ten laws are actually restated in the NT (all except the "Seventh Day Sabbath") so they apply to our blessings now. The stated rules are to be followed for later heavenly rewards but NOT for salvation so the old Hebrew rules of daily religious practices and temple sacrifice don't apply to us.

    If we read scripture for ourselves and basically understand to whom the varied rules apply, and for what purposes, most of the puzzlement fades away. I think.
    That an interesting concept. Where did you hear of this? So basically the 10 Commandments are just 10 Suggestions? Or am I not understanding something?

  10. #10
    Boolit Buddy T_McD's Avatar
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    The biggest issue is that most have not read the Bible for themselves and are left with what various sects proclaim as truth. Contrary to popular belief knowing Hebrew or ancient history is not required for a basic understanding of the text.

    Now for my opinion, Jesus said (paraphrased) to “love God and love your neighbors” and that those two things summed up the entirety of the law. He has whittled it down to two rules which are still completely out of humans abilities to succeed at. When one can succeed at these two commandments, they will likely find homosexuality, divorce, suicide, abortion to be no more important than any other human failing.

    Last point, if Jesus felt it appropriate to leave just two rules, who else has any right to add to that?

  11. #11
    Boolit Master
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    Contrary to popular belief knowing Hebrew or ancient history is not required for a basic understanding of the text.
    Says who?

    I for one have read, and do read, the Bible. I do not find it magical in any sense, in fact I find it boring, and confusing much of the time. There are some parts that are great to be sure. But if I was raised as an unbeliever, atheist perhaps, and just sat down and read the Bible, by myself, there is nothing about it that would be convincing of its value. It is only when I start asking others and researching "what does this mean?" that things come to light. Even in the Bible itself, there was an Ethiopian eunuch that read scripture and asked St. Paul for an explanation because the Ethiopian found it confusing.

    Yes Jesus summed up the law, but he also clarified the law in more detail when he said that whoever calls his neighbor a fool commits murder, or whoever looks at a woman with lust commits adultery.

    The fact is, Jesus didn't write a book, he chose 12 men and started a church. He put the responsibility on those men to get it started. The Bible only gives us a tiny glimpse of everything that Jesus said and did. How do I know? The Bible admits it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T_McD View Post
    The biggest issue is that most have not read the Bible for themselves and are left with what various sects proclaim as truth. Contrary to popular belief knowing Hebrew or ancient history is not required for a basic understanding of the text.

    Now for my opinion, Jesus said (paraphrased) to “love God and love your neighbors” and that those two things summed up the entirety of the law. He has whittled it down to two rules which are still completely out of humans abilities to succeed at. When one can succeed at these two commandments, they will likely find homosexuality, divorce, suicide, abortion to be no more important than any other human failing.

    Last point, if Jesus felt it appropriate to leave just two rules, who else has any right to add to that?
    Paul
    He was ordered to save the non-Jews.
    He has everything covered in his letters.
    What Paul said.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jaque Janaviac View Post
    That an interesting concept. Where did you hear of this? So basically the 10 Commandments are just 10 Suggestions? Or am I not understanding something?
    I don't quite know how to answer because I don't exactly understand what you're trying to say; help me with this:

    In your judgement what do we obtain if we precisely follow the Ten Commandments? Are each of the Commandments mandatory and must every one be followed in order for God to love us? Or, if the laws aren't absolutely mandatory, where is the break point, how many Commandments may believers break before God sends us to he77?

    God started man out with just ONE rule; "Don't eat that stuff!" Later, over hundreds of years, He expanded the rules. Then, after the Exodus from Egypt, he gave Moses a vastly increased list of laws to be worked out. Then, some 2,000 years later, Messiah came to full fill the purpose of the Law of works and He gave man a New Covenant, in his blood, based on our love of Him and our faith that He will see us safely through the tribulations of this life.

    The New Testament, the Gospel of Christ is the "good news", the news that salvation is His undeserved gift to imperfect believers because it cannot be earned by works of the Law even if you want to call them the Ten Suggestions. If that's wrong then John 3:16 has no fixed meaning and nothing was changed with the New Testament; I don't think you actually believe that.

    If salvation could be earned by following a set of Laws then the Pharasees were right and Jesus' agonizing sacrifice of himself on the cross to pay for our failures was meaningless. And that just ain't so.

  14. #14
    Boolit Buddy T_McD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jaque Janaviac View Post
    Says who?

    I for one have read, and do read, the Bible. I do not find it magical in any sense, in fact I find it boring, and confusing much of the time. There are some parts that are great to be sure. But if I was raised as an unbeliever, atheist perhaps, and just sat down and read the Bible, by myself, there is nothing about it that would be convincing of its value. It is only when I start asking others and researching "what does this mean?" that things come to light. Even in the Bible itself, there was an Ethiopian eunuch that read scripture and asked St. Paul for an explanation because the Ethiopian found it confusing.

    Yes Jesus summed up the law, but he also clarified the law in more detail when he said that whoever calls his neighbor a fool commits murder, or whoever looks at a woman with lust commits adultery.

    The fact is, Jesus didn't write a book, he chose 12 men and started a church. He put the responsibility on those men to get it started. The Bible only gives us a tiny glimpse of everything that Jesus said and did. How do I know? The Bible admits it.
    “Love god, love your neighbor” requires no explanation. If your actions don’t meet that criteria, they inevitably fail to meet other aspects of scripture.

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    Boolit Buddy T_McD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmort View Post
    Paul
    He was ordered to save the non-Jews.
    He has everything covered in his letters.
    What Paul said.

    Paul was a man, a preacher. His words have some value but I prefer to rely on the source

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    Quote Originally Posted by T_McD View Post
    Paul was a man, a preacher. His words have some value but I prefer to rely on the source
    What source?????
    BTW Paul was an Apostle
    If you want to disregard Jesus' specific instruction on the role of the Apostles and his direction that they would build The Church, you have free will.
    Sounds like people just want to make it up based on their own whishes and desires. I will stick with The Bible as the inherent Word of God.
    Make it up if you will. Good luck with that.

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy T_McD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmort View Post
    What source?????
    BTW Paul was an Apostle
    If you want to disregard Jesus' specific instruction on the role of the Apostles and his direction that they would build The Church, you have free will.
    Sounds like people just want to make it up based on their own whishes and desires. I will stick with The Bible as the inherent Word of God.
    Make it up if you will. Good luck with that.
    Please tell me how following the two greatest commandments to the best of my abilities will do any amount of harm?

    Focus more on that and less on the judgement of others. The Bible is not a club and should not be wielded as such.

  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    “Love god, love your neighbor” requires no explanation. If your actions don’t meet that criteria, they inevitably fail to meet other aspects of scripture.
    Right, it is pretty simple, but also pretty vague. If a brief, 5-word summary of Scripture is all that is necessary, why read the rest of the Bible? There's over 50 books in the Bible, you surely can't be saying they're just a long-winded way of saying, "Love god, love your neighbor."

    How do you go about loving God?
    How do you go about loving your neighbor?

    When I research those answers I find that reading the Bible by myself only gets me so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by T_McD View Post
    Please tell me how following the two greatest commandments to the best of my abilities will do any amount of harm?

    Focus more on that and less on the judgement of others. The Bible is not a club and should not be wielded as such.
    Where did you find those two commandments?????
    Did you tear the rest of the pages out of your Bible???
    There is no judgment. I have seen any judgment in this thread.
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  20. #20
    Boolit Buddy T_McD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Jaque Janaviac View Post
    Right, it is pretty simple, but also pretty vague. If a brief, 5-word summary of Scripture is all that is necessary, why read the rest of the Bible? There's over 50 books in the Bible, you surely can't be saying they're just a long-winded way of saying, "Love god, love your neighbor."

    How do you go about loving God?
    How do you go about loving your neighbor?

    When I research those answers I find that reading the Bible by myself only gets me so far.
    Agreed, vague tends to accompany all inclusive statements. My point in all this is simply that when one’s focus shifts away from those two commandments, things go downhill quick.
    My answer on what parts of scripture to follow revolves around what enables you to love God and love people. In my mind it really is that simple, not easy but not complex either.

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