How do you choose what parts to follow?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

How can you say with a straight face that’s it’s not a “club” and then say it’s not for me? Who are you to pass judgement? You have exposed quite clearly what I am talking about. You realize this attitude is extremely evident to “non-believers” who are looking for something different but aren’t ready to jump in whole hog.

Because it is not a club. Religions are meant to be take-it-or-leave-it belief systems. Either the divinity of Christ is a core part of what makes Christianity, Christianity. I don't expect Hindus to change their core beliefs to accommodate my doubts. I say let Hindus be Hindus and let Christians be Christians. Then we get to pick from what is there. There are plenty of other religions that believe Christ is not divine - Muslims, Mormons, and Jehovas (I think).

I'm not passing judgment on anyone who does not accept Christianity. I'm actually enjoying people asking some basic-yet-challenging questions, because these are the very questions I've grappled with. The fact that you have these questions only indicates that you are a clever, critical thinker. So there, I guess I did judge you.

I do get the sense that your not really reading my posts though.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Finally brother Jac, I never once thought you mean anything less than honorable. Fact is, I love honest challenges because others force me to rethink and reappraise what and why I believe about anything. I've never learned a single thing from folks who agreed with me! Honest people do honestly hold different positions. Far too many folk seem to take disagreement as a personal attack and that should not be.

Like two pugilists duking it out in the ring. Then laughing over a beer and black eyes afterwards. I love it!

[T_McD]

Because it is not a club. Religions are meant to be take-it-or-leave-it belief systems. Either the divinity of Christ is a core part of what makes Christianity, Christianity. I don't expect Hindus to change their core beliefs to accommodate my doubts. I say let Hindus be Hindus and let Christians be Christians. Then we get to pick from what is there. There are plenty of other religions that believe Christ is not divine - Muslims, Mormons, and Jehovas (I think).

It’s an organized group of people pursuing similar interests, call it what you will.

Does your version of heaven include Jews? Hindus? Indigenous peoples with no organized religion?

I ask because I strongly believe in A deity. However, I cannot ignore that my deity of choice is largely based on geography and not righteousness.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

It’s an organized group of people pursuing similar interests, call it what you will.

Does your version of heaven include Jews? Hindus? Indigenous peoples with no organized religion?

I ask because I strongly believe in A deity. However, I cannot ignore that my deity of choice is largely based on geography and not righteousness.

I don't have a version of Heaven. It is Someone else's version that I subscribe to.

If a Catholic is someone who believes that everything the Catholic Church teaches is true, then, at the end of time, everyone in Heaven will be Catholic . . .and everyone in Hell will be Catholic. At the end of time everything will be made manifest - we will know what it true and what is not. We won't have to have these discussions as the Truth will be plain and obvious (and glorious).

But I think your question is more along the lines of Can a Jew or Hindu or some pagan in the jungles of Borneo get into heaven without converting to Catholicism during this lifetime. Yes it is possible, God is perfectly just, and someone who, through no fault of their own is not given a fair opportunity to become Catholic will not be condemned. Not for that anyway.

[dverna]

Can you please share with me your criteria for determining if a biblical story or assertion is true or false? Is it just a matter of what rings true to you?

Let's start..."In the beginning...."

This was the topic of a thread I started a couple of weeks ago I believe. It was simple....was a day a 24 hour day in Genesis?

Genesis is the very foundation of the Bible and there is a difference of opinion on whether every day was a 24 hr day. I was pleased to learn that theologians cannot agree on this as it addresses my doubts about how Genesis occurred. I choose not to believe each day was 24 hr as written in the Bible as it does not fit my knowledge of science.

So yes, to address your question..... I use my education, and common sense to discern what is highly likely, or probable, or possible, or likely false, or not applicable in our time (slavery for eg), or foolish and not applicable ever (like the sacrifice of turtle doves eg).

If I must accept every word in the Bible as true and the way to live my life to qualify as a Christian, I fail. God will judge me on that. He knows my thoughts, rationale, and what is in my heart (brain).

[dtknowles]

Let's start..."In the beginning...."

This was the topic of a thread I started a couple of weeks ago I believe. It was simple....was a day a 24 hour day in Genesis?

Genesis is the very foundation of the Bible and there is a difference of opinion on whether every day was a 24 hr day. I was pleased to learn that theologians cannot agree on this as it addresses my doubts about how Genesis occurred. I choose not to believe each day was 24 hr as written in the Bible as it does not fit my knowledge of science.

So yes, to address your question..... I use my education, and common sense to discern what is highly likely, or probable, or possible, or likely false, or not applicable in our time (slavery for eg), or foolish and not applicable ever (like the sacrifice of turtle doves eg).

If I must accept every word in the Bible as true and the way to live my life to qualify as a Christian, I fail. God will judge me on that. He knows my thoughts, rationale, and what is in my heart (brain).

We define a day as the time it takes Earth to spin 360 degrees on its axis of rotation. On the first day there was no Earth so the idea that Genesis is talking about 24 hour days is kind of unfounded..

https://bibleview.org/en/bible/genesis/7days/

I think Genesis is really the 7 phases of creation.

Tim

[dverna]

We define a day as the time it takes Earth to spin 360 degrees on its axis of rotation. On the first day there was no Earth so the idea that Genesis is talking about 24 hour days is kind of unfounded..

https://bibleview.org/en/bible/genesis/7days/

I think Genesis is really the 7 phases of creation.

Tim

Tim,

Glad you are back. I kind of identify with you as I do not "fit the mold" of most of the members here. If we were cast bullets we would be in the reject pile...LOL

As to the 24 hr day, my pastor is adamant that yom can only be translated as a 24 hr day. He is convinced that Genesis happened as written in six 24 days and that the universe is 6-10,000 years old. He has been patient with me and refers to me as friend...not brother...but as least he puts up with my questions. In one email, he was kind enough to see the logic of my doubt but he made it a point that we must agree God created everything by his Word and that evolution was ridiculous. Although I had not mentioned evolution, he must have thought it prudent to draw a line in the sand before I said something "stupid".

As someone once said to me. "Reasonable people can agree to disagree". And that is were we left it. He cannot believe anything else without undermining his faith...I cannot believe what is at the least highly improbable, and more than likely incorrect.

Thank you for the link.

To the rest, I will probably stop posting on this thread. My goal is not to upset others. I search for answers to those hard questions that require a degree of faith I do not yet have. The answers will be revealed soon enough anyway, and He will know those who had honest questions and those who were instruments of Satan.

[Ickisrulz]

Let's start..."In the beginning...."

This was the topic of a thread I started a couple of weeks ago I believe. It was simple....was a day a 24 hour day in Genesis?

Genesis is the very foundation of the Bible and there is a difference of opinion on whether every day was a 24 hr day. I was pleased to learn that theologians cannot agree on this as it addresses my doubts about how Genesis occurred. I choose not to believe each day was 24 hr as written in the Bible as it does not fit my knowledge of science.

So yes, to address your question..... I use my education, and common sense to discern what is highly likely, or probable, or possible, or likely false, or not applicable in our time (slavery for eg), or foolish and not applicable ever (like the sacrifice of turtle doves eg).

If I must accept every word in the Bible as true and the way to live my life to qualify as a Christian, I fail. God will judge me on that. He knows my thoughts, rationale, and what is in my heart (brain).

God doesn't require his people to be 100% accurate in their theology. This is good for the majority of us.

I once heard a teacher claim that many Christians didn't really believe God was omnipresent. If they did, they wouldn't do the things that they do. It's important to walk in the light you have.

[Thundarstick]

If I use my education, science, common sense, and my own discernment. There is no resurrection of the dead, Christ did not raise himself from the dead, and my faith is in vain, and being a Christian is a total waste of time! After all, you only go round once!

[jmort]

Pretty much
The Gift of Salvation is given to all
Some get The Call
Others reject it

[T_McD]

I don't have a version of Heaven. It is Someone else's version that I subscribe to.

If a Catholic is someone who believes that everything the Catholic Church teaches is true, then, at the end of time, everyone in Heaven will be Catholic . . .and everyone in Hell will be Catholic. At the end of time everything will be made manifest - we will know what it true and what is not. We won't have to have these discussions as the Truth will be plain and obvious (and glorious).

But I think your question is more along the lines of Can a Jew or Hindu or some pagan in the jungles of Borneo get into heaven without converting to Catholicism during this lifetime. Yes it is possible, God is perfectly just, and someone who, through no fault of their own is not given a fair opportunity to become Catholic will not be condemned. Not for that anyway.

So where do the pagans go if heaven and hell are catholic only?

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

So where do the pagans go if heaven and hell are catholic only?

Imagine that, at the end of time, we all get to meet God. At that point all the cards will be shown and we will all know who He is. You'll meet Jesus Christ in person, and you can have all your questions answered. If the Catholic Church is right, it will be obvious that Budda, Mohammed, Brahma, Moloch, and whatever spirit of the four directions are false prophets and false gods. So if a person was pagan all their life, then it is made obvious to them that paganism was incorrect, but that Jesus Christ is Lord - will they still be pagan? They can no longer claim to believe in the spirit of the oak tree when Jesus Christ is shaking their hand.

Remember, even the demons in the Gospel said, "We know who you are! You are the Son of God!" They recognized Jesus as the Son of God - the demons believed.

[wv109323]

The common thread throughout all the Bible is " The just shall live by faith".
Hebrews 11 deals with people that had faith and pleased God. A few were Abraham, Noah, and Abel. These were before the Law or the Torah was given to the Jews. On that I believe that all people can obtain salvation.
Faith is a three legged stool. Action- if we have faith then it will show in our actions and there will be action if we have faith. Belief- Our belief must be solid. God never requires us to be 100% correct on every issue. But if we truly belive then we will study and educate ourselves (church id a good place to learn)the best we can. There are many things I consider "non-essentials" in order to please God. I am not dogmatic about some things but there are truths that MUST be adhered to. What I don't know,I don't know. I realize I can not approach Gods intelligence. I consider a lot of todays science and politics as biased and untrue. The best sciencists at one time thought the earth was flat.
Conscience- my actions and belief will affect my every action in order to please God.
I realize God can create at whatever speed he wants, he can keep Jonah in a whales belly three days alive and he can work outside our laws of space,time and matter.

[T_McD]

Imagine that, at the end of time, we all get to meet God. At that point all the cards will be shown and we will all know who He is. You'll meet Jesus Christ in person, and you can have all your questions answered. If the Catholic Church is right, it will be obvious that Budda, Mohammed, Brahma, Moloch, and whatever spirit of the four directions are false prophets and false gods. So if a person was pagan all their life, then it is made obvious to them that paganism was incorrect, but that Jesus Christ is Lord - will they still be pagan? They can no longer claim to believe in the spirit of the oak tree when Jesus Christ is shaking their hand.

Remember, even the demons in the Gospel said, "We know who you are! You are the Son of God!" They recognized Jesus as the Son of God - the demons believed.

So everyone gets a chance to become “Catholic”? Who the hell ends up in hell?

[1hole]

So everyone gets a chance to become “Catholic”? Who the hell ends up in hell?

I can't speak for Jac but it might help if you know that "catholic" (small "c") simply means universal, as the universal church includes all Christians regardless of denomination. "Roman Catholics" (large "C", and its many fractured subgroups) is a discrete denomination and, at best, only a fragment of Christianity at large. Meaning that no denomination has a lock on heaven or he77. If we are not Christians, i.e. if we are not born again, trusting believers in Jesus as Lord, we'll go to he77 no matter what denomination we may have joined, or what cult-like denominational hoops we may spend our lives hopefully jumping through, to placate God. (That's not my words but His; see Eph 2:8-10)

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

So everyone gets a chance to become “Catholic”? Who the hell ends up in hell?

Remember, Satan didn't say "I do not believe." Satan said, "I will not serve." Those who refuse to serve Truth, Goodness, and Beauty end up in Hell.
I should repeat, this is my feeble attempt to explain what the Catholic Church teaches. I could be off-mark on some things.
So the answer to who ends up in he77 is - those who did not love God (who is Truth, Goodness, and Beauty). So if you really love Truth, and you encounter a claim that someone has risen from the dead, do you dismiss this as lunacy? Or do you investigate the bejeebers out of this?

If you dismiss this, then you relegate those who believe the claim to the same bin as wild conspiracy theorists, and bigfoot hunters. But the evidence indicates that many, many believers are perfectly sane and normal people. So, if you really love Truth, are you going to just ignore this conundrum? Are you just going to forget about it and go mow the lawn?

[T_McD]

I just have a hard time subscribing to the belief that my version of god is THE God. Is seems a bit egotistical to believe that I just happen to have found the truth and billions of others are ignorant

[dtknowles]

I just have a hard time subscribing to the belief that my version of god is THE God. Is seems a bit egotistical to believe that I just happen to have found the truth and billions of others are ignorant

There is but one God. The creator of the Heavens and the Earth. I don't believe it matters what religion only that you do what he wants.

Tim

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I just have a hard time subscribing to the belief that my version of god is THE God. Is seems a bit egotistical to believe that I just happen to have found the truth and billions of others are ignorant

What do you mean by "my version"? That seems to imply that whatever god you believe in is one that you made up. The Christian God is not my version of a god at all. God is His own being, and He and I don't always agree (I've learned the hard way that when that is the case I am wrong).

It could be egotistical if by finding the truth we thought we were special, or that others were inferior. But that is why we say that it is possible that someone who has not been exposed to Christianity can still be saved. God is a just judge. There will be no one in Hell who doesn't deserve to be. If some poor soul in China has never heard of Christianity, he may be in Heaven.

And believe you me, being Catholic is no ego trip. Everytime my church leaders are in the news it is quite embarrassing.