Quickload 38/44 help

[mja_20]

New member here so if I'm in the wrong place, feel free to let me know. Done a number of searches before joining and this place seems to be the one regarding actual data.

Hoping someone can help a new member out with quick load data.
Short and sweet answer to “why” (since it seems people ask regarding this topic) is Father in law has a S&W model 13 (.357) but shoots 38 special out of it and thus has brass for it. Looking at basically reloading 38/44 to be used in his 357 pistol. Wanting to use the speer 135 grain gold dot hollow point. Lucky gunner tests seem to show it's pretty consistent in expansion and penetration once it gets above 1000 fps in their testing.

Now with the "why" out of the way........So far in terms of load experiment, I used Alliant 2400 as that seemed to be common for 38/44 loads, except no data for the speer 135 grain bullet. Started low which obviously doesn’t go well since 2400 seems to like a little pressure to burn right.

For what Im thinking is a 38/44 type load, seemed to be ok with speer 135 grain gold dot, at 12.9 grains of 2400, new Winchester 38 spl brass, cci primer, length at 1.45 in the crimp groove and a pretty decent crimp. Primers don’t appear to be flat and cases came right out with ease.

Grouping is good and seems to be burning clean (unlike the lighter loads). Im getting about a shade under 1,100 FPS from chronograph so everything fits my intended goals.

So finally, the question right. Will someone be willing to help me out and tell me what the pressure would pencil out to with that load. Undoubtedly I’m well over 38 special pressures, but as a matter of insurance, hoping to see if I am at or under 357 pressure, ie something like a 38/44 135 grain load.

I’m hoping to see numbers out of a 3 inch barrel as well as run numbers from a 4 inch barrel. We can list this as all “theoretical” if that makes it safer though I think this would fit as acceptable for potential 38/44 load.

Appreciate anybody willing to help with what the pressure might be close to.

Thanks

[sniper]

Welcome!

You will find it friendly and helpful here!

In the October 2016 HANDLOADER magazine, Brian Pearce did a rather comprehensive article about the .38-44 and .38 Special +P, which you may find helpful. He has one section of .38 +P loads, and it includes the 135 gr. Speer GDHP. His .38-44 loads include some using 2400, but for heavier bullets. You can probably buy a back issue directly from the magazine. The two latest Speer reloading manuals have loads at .38 Spl. and 357 Magnum levels for the 135 gr. bullets, IIRC.

[Outpost75]

In a 3" barrel with 135-grain bullets Alliant #2400 is not your best powder choice.

For use in my .357 guns, using Federal .38 Special +P+ headstamped brass I load 5 grains of Bullseye which gives exactly the velocity you seek from a 2-1/2" to 3" short barrel gun, and is completely OK in any .357, but not in a .38 Special chambered gun of you want it to last.

Works great in my Ruger Service Six and S&W Model 28 Highway Patrolman.

Your mileage may vary.

[mja_20]

Thanks for the welcome. I'll keep an eye out for the article or at least the data it put out.

Welcome!

You will find it friendly and helpful here!

In the October 2016 HANDLOADER magazine, Brian Pearce did a rather comprehensive article about the .38-44 and .38 Special +P, which you may find helpful. He has one section of .38 +P loads, and it includes the 135 gr. Speer GDHP. His .38-44 loads include some using 2400, but for heavier bullets. You can probably buy a back issue directly from the magazine. The two latest Speer reloading manuals have loads at .38 Spl. and 357 Magnum levels for the 135 gr. bullets, IIRC.

[mja_20]

In a 3" barrel with 135-grain bullets Alliant #2400 is not your best powder choice.

For use in my .357 guns, using Federal .38 Special +P+ headstamped brass I load 5 grains of Bullseye which gives exactly the velocity you seek from a 2-1/2" to 3" short barrel gun, and is completely OK in any .357, but not in a .38 Special chambered gun of you want it to last.

Works great in my Ruger Service Six and S&W Model 28 Highway Patrolman.

Your mileage may vary.

Whats the down side to using alliant #2400 in a 3 inch? Not enough length to burn completely? Would a 4 inch be enough or does it take a 6 inch?

As a side note, the case fill on the 2400 looks pretty good. How is the case fill with Bullseye? I might have a pound of that floating around somewhere in the dungeon to try.

[Outpost75]

Whats the down side to using alliant #2400 in a 3 inch?...

Un burned powder jams the gun if even one particle sets under the extractor. Better carry a toothbrush!

In barrels shorter than 4" Bullseye, TiteGroup, 452AA, WST, Red Dot, Green Dot, 700X are MUCH better choices!

[mja_20]

Yes, that certainly is and was true. I started pretty low expecting that to happen with unburned powder, and it certainly did at lower pressures. By the time I made it to 12.5 grains it was cleaning up pretty good. Didn't hardly notice any at 12.9 grains which was shooting pretty clean and good groups. Hence the reason I stopped.

If I opt to start over, I know for sure I have some Herco and AA#7, maybe those might work better if I can't find that pound of Bullseye.

Un burned powder jams the gun if even one particle sets under the extractor. Better carry a toothbrush!

In barrels shorter than 4" Bullseye, TiteGroup, 452AA, WST, Red Dot, Green Dot, 700X are MUCH better choices!

[Pirate69]

You should be somewhere in the 28,340 psi range. Projected velocity around 1,070 fps. 38 Spec SAAMI is 17,000 psi. This is hot.

[mja_20]

You should be somewhere in the 28,340 psi range. Projected velocity around 1,070 fps. 38 Spec SAAMI is 17,000 psi. This is hot.

Thanks for taking the time to calculate that for me. The estimated FPS is pretty close to what I had on my chrono. Yes, its hot for a 38 spec loads and still over for the pressure range of the 38+p. Just for clarification for future readers, I was using this in a 357 K frame and aiming for a 33/44 type load. I haven't seen anything posted about official 38/44 pressures, but read where people were guesstimating in may have been in or about the 25,000 pressure range. According to the above estimate I'm certainly below the 35,000 pressure mark of a 357, but fairly close to the 38/44 range or perhaps a bit above depending how accurate the 25,000 pressure number is. Maybe something between 38/44 and low end 357. I may try something like this again, but with a 158 grain bullet as I have bags and bags 38spl brass.

Again, appreciate the help.

[Outpost75]

As FYI, data from firing today.

Factory .357 loads fired in 4" S&W Model 28 Highway Patrolman and 1939 Colt New Service 5"in .357 Mag.

The .38-44 handloads fired from a 1955 S&W .38-44 Heavy Duty and the 5"Colt New Service .357 Mag.

Factory .38 Special +P and .357 Mag. Velocities and .38 Special (.38-44) Handloads

Ammunition________________S&W .38-44 HD 4”____Colt New Service .357 Mag. 5”


Factory Loads Fired for Reference:

.357 Mag. Super-X 158-gr.Lubaloy__1236, 8 Sd (fr.S&W Mod. 28)____1307 fps, 36 Sd
.357 Mag. Rem-UMC 158-gr. SWC__1221 fps, 23 Sd(S&W Mod28)____1287 fps, 27 Sd
Old Super-X 158-grain LRN ".38-44"__994 fps, 23 Sd______________1024 fps, 11 Sd
.38 Spl. Winch X38SPD 158-gr.LHP+P_909 fps, 16 Sd_______________936 fps, 16 Sd

“.38-44” Handloads Assembled in W-W .38 Special brass, WSP primer:

Saeco#348 146DEWC 8.9 grs.#2400+P__922 fps,12 Sd___________1005fps, 34 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 4.0 grs. Bullseye+P______871 fps, 5 Sd______________902 fps, 14 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 5.5 grs. AutoComp+P____902 fps, 14 Sd_____________947 fps, 11 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 11.5 IMR4227+P________914 fps, 22 Sd_____________981 fps, 18 Sd
Acc. 36-190T 8.4 #2400+P___________888 fps, 21 Sd_____________926 fps, 37 Sd

[Hi-Speed]

Handloader 16 is highly recommended for loading 38-44 type loads. If using the Speer 135 gr GDHP, I would opt to use 38 Spl +P load information using Power Pistol.

The original 38-44 used a 158 gr lead bullet at approximately 1,100 FPS in 6 inch barrels. 38-44s were typically shot in barrels longer than 3 inches, 4 to 6 1/2 barrels with S&W Heavy Duty and S&W Outdoorsman revolvers being popular platforms for this souped-up 38 Spl. The 38-44 38s were precursors to the 357 Magnum revolver. Currently, I load 38-44 loads with the 158 gr, 160 gr and 170 gr SWC’s and shoot them in a Ruger 357 Magnum 4 5/8 in BH. My powders of choice for these cast SWCs include 2400, Unique and Power Pistol.

You be best served using Power Pistol with your 135 gr bullet in the shorter barrel.

[Outpost75]

Here is recent chronograph data for original factory .38-44 and .357 loads, and my ".38-44" Handloads:

Factory .38 Special +P and .357 Mag. Velocities and .38 Special (.38-44) Handloads

Ammunition___1955_S&W .38-44 HD 4”___1939_Colt New Service .357. 5”

Factory Loads Fired for Reference:

.357 Mag. Super-X 158-gr.Lubaloy__1236, 8 Sd (fr.S&W Mod. 28)__1307 fps, 36 Sd
.357 Mag. Rem-UMC 158-gr. SWC__1221 fps, 23 Sd(S&W Mod28)_1287 fps, 27 Sd
Old Super-X 158-grain LRN .38-44___994 fps, 23 Sd____________1024 fps, 11 Sd
Winchester X38SPD 158-gr. LHP+P___909 fps, 16 Sd_____________936 fps, 16 Sd

“.38-44” Handloads in .38 Special brass, W-W cases, WSP primer:

Saeco #348 146DEWC 8.9 grs.#2400+P__922 fps,12 Sd___________1005fps, 34 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 4.0 grs. Bullseye+P______871 fps, 5 Sd_____________902 fps, 14 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 5.5 grs. AutoComp+P____902 fps, 14 Sd____________947 fps, 11 Sd
Acc. 36-175H 11.5 IMR4227+P________914 fps, 22 Sd____________981 fps, 18 Sd
Acc. 36-190T 8.4 #2400+P___________888 fps, 21 Sd_____________926 fps, 37 Sd

Attachment 249768Attachment 249767

[Hi-Speed]

Outpost75, that old Super X 158 gr 38-44 load was something...that was when the brand “Super X” meant something. I recall the Remington “Hi-Speed” 158 gr rnl of the late 60s and early 70s...comparable load.

I’ve duplicated both with 2400 and the 158 gr Lyman 358311.

Buffalo Bore outdoorsman 38 Spl +P loading is comparable albeit a bit hotter.

I also struggle using “135 gr GDHP” in the same sentence as “38-44” ... lighter bullets were never part of the 38-44/38 Spl Hi Speed legacy...