Maximum Legal Caliber

[David2011]

I can find no difference between a rifle and a shotgun with a rifled barrel shooting slugs. The sporting exemptions could be withdrawn at any time on a wim. Someone explain the difference in a rifle and a slug gun with brass shells.

Yes i understand but what makes a shotgun a shotgun. Both can have rifled barrels both can use brass cases and lead bullets. But legally what does it take to be a shotgun. I have read articles on custom made shotguns that were designed along the lines of a rifle just for hunting large game . As far as the sporting exemptions they are open to interpretation and can be changed. I can easily see rifles over .5 having a legitimate sporting purpose for large game. But i doubt they will get an exemption.

Red Bear,

I have absolutely no trouble telling the difference between a large bore rifle's mechanical characteristics and those of a shotgun. To see the difference between a shotgun and a rifle, even SxS double rifles and shotguns, simply look at the difference in thickness at various points along the barrel. It is the barrel that contains the pressure. The metallic cartridge is just a gasket to seal the chamber end to contain the gas.

All of the large bore Nitro Express caliber rifles are legal to possess and use in the United Stated although the game appropriate for them is limited. "Sporting use" can be interpreted to mean target shooting as well as hunting. They were all manufactured for sporting use. You are doubting exemptions that already exist. Certainly the law could be changed. The .600 Nitro Express dates back to around 1900 and the .700 dates to 1988.

From page 39 of "The 2014 edition of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide." (https://www.atf.gov/file/11241/download)

"Shotgun. A weapon designed or re-designed, made or remade, and intend-ed to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or re-made to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger."

What makes a shotgun a shotgun is that it is designed to chamber SHOTGUN shells. Brass shotgun shells are not high pressure cartridges. By the BATFE definition "fixed shotgun shell," that is the limiting factor of the difference between shotgun pressures and rifle pressures. The chamber and not the cartridge is the limiting factor in the ability to withstand pressure.

[lar45]

Shotgun= smooth bore. Except for the exemption for rifled slug barrels.

The Taurus Judge fires 45 Colt and 410 shotshells, but the barrel is rifled so it's a handgun.

If you want to build an over 50cal rifle, you ask the ATF before you build it.

[Jedman]

I can see we are all in the same boat. No one really understands the law.

Jedman

[GhostHawk]

They don't want us using 20 or 25mm rifles for sporting purposes, or any other purpose for that matter.

IMO the big difference between shotgun, rifled or otherwise, and a larger than .50 rifle is range. Even the .50bmg in a good rifle can shoot pretty accurately for a long long ways. No shotgun slug can match it, or even get into the same ballpark. Rifled or otherwise.

If you had a 25mm sniper rifle built you could in theory hit a car sized target at a range over a mile pretty consistently. This is what they are afraid of. Shotguns don't scare them. Over .50 caliber destructive devices do.

The other point that crossed my mind is this.

Pretty hard to make a good exploding projectile for under .50. Yes WWII aircraft had .50 AP incendary rounds. But not HE.

20, 25, 30mm cannons (Large rifles) all had good HE explosive shells. They do not want the farmers in Montana blowing up the FBI's cars a mile or more away from where their target lives. Actually I think just the thought of it would have them all wearing depends adult diapers.

[RED BEAR]

Well there are a lot of rifles that do not handle 35000 psi. The 45/70 44/40 are just two i have brass 12 gauge shells that i can load slugs in if i shoot them in a single shot gun how is that any different than say a 45/70? I do agree that sporting can mean a lot of different things to a lot of different people. Bump stocks used to be legal came with letter from batfe stating that how well did that work out. I can understand that a shotgun and a rifle are different to me. Are they really different to a bureaucrat that knows nothing about fire arms . I have read an article in cartridges of the world where the author had a 20 gauge slug gun made for big game and i defy anyone to tell the difference between that gun and a rifle. i am building a double rifle in 45/70 out of an old double barrel shotgun so is it still a shotgun or only a shotgun without the barrel inserts. All i am saying if you get an anti gunner in white house and his people in batfe you don't think t he exemptions could change whats legal today may not be tomorrow. The 2nd amendment applying to individuals was a 5 to 4 discussion it would only take one vote to change to end that.

[kenton]

check this link, Part (a), Section 4, Subsection (B)
https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/921

Got it from this thread
https://www.practicalmachinist.com/v...a-hell-126971/

[AllanD]

As a note: in WW2 The Germans fielded an explosive projectile 12.5mm MachineCannon, but they had production difficulties beyond the fact that bombs kept falling into their factories...

They don't want us using 20 or 25mm rifles for sporting purposes, or any other purpose for that matter.

IMO the big difference between shotgun, rifled or otherwise, and a larger than .50 rifle is range. Even the .50bmg in a good rifle can shoot pretty accurately for a long long ways. No shotgun slug can match it, or even get into the same ballpark. Rifled or otherwise.

If you had a 25mm sniper rifle built you could in theory hit a car sized target at a range over a mile pretty consistently. This is what they are afraid of. Shotguns don't scare them. Over .50 caliber destructive devices do.

The other point that crossed my mind is this.

Pretty hard to make a good exploding projectile for under .50. Yes WWII aircraft had .50 AP incendary rounds. But not HE.

20, 25, 30mm cannons (Large rifles) all had good HE explosive shells. They do not want the farmers in Montana blowing up the FBI's cars a mile or more away from where their target lives. Actually I think just the thought of it would have them all wearing depends adult diapers.

[GregLaROCHE]

To me it used to be simple. A shotgun was smooth bore. Now with rifled shotgun barrels and all the new slugs that are being developed, the line between a shotgun and rifle is getting pretty thin. It will only take one accident at a long distance, where it is shotgun only hunting, to end all hunting in that area and others.

[RED BEAR]

Kenton that is my point exactly it is dependent on how the attorney general see's it. If you look at section 5 thats my definition of a shotgun. Section 7 is my definition of a rifle . Now explain how a slug gun fits section 5 and not section 7. You can see just how much discretion is given the attorney general to decide what is and is not legal. The only reason they dont go after shotguns is the uproar it would cause. But don't count on it staying that way . In the climate today can you really say that a dem president's attorney general wouldn't use his power to ban all he could. For those who say its the pressure or you can look at a barrels thickness you will note that these are nowhere in the definition it is pretty much based on rifling in a barrel. As far as accuracy if you look at the 20 gauge shotgun that was made for cartridges of the world author it is plane to see it is very accurate to long ranges as he uses it for a big game rifle. It actually uses hand loaded shotgun shells loaded to very high pressure for a shotgun shell.

[WRideout]

FWIW, in my career as an environmental scientist (don't judge me) One of the first things I discovered was that the legal definition of a "solid waste" was a "solid or liquid that....." Regulations enacted by a Federal agency can say anything they want, as long as it is officially defined.

Wayne

[Texas by God]

500 linebaugh is .510"

Linebaugh made a .577 Ruger Redhawk with Batf permission. Technically he would need for that .510" .500 Linebaugh as well. My earlier post left out shotguns; under 1" for shot shells, past that it must be muzzleloading. The same with rifled bores; over 1" must be muzzleloading like a blackpowder cannon.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[RED BEAR]

My point was that any permission given can be taken away. Items are only exempt at the good graces of government. Anything a bureaucrat gives can be taken away. There are laws on books that can be twisted to outlaw most guns. Liberal judges have been pulling rulings out of thin air for a long time. Not long ago justice sotomayor said she realized her dissent didn't follow the law but she didn't care she felt it was right. Now with this type of thinking tell me what rights are guaranteed?

[David2011]

I can see we are all in the same boat. No one really understands the law.

Jedman

I must be in a different boat.

Repeating myself, this is directly from the BATFE:

From page 39 of "The 2014 edition of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide." (https://www.atf.gov/file/11241/download)

"Shotgun. A weapon designed or re-designed, made or remade, and intend-ed to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or re-made to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger."

I have no trouble at all understanding the law. I recognize that the BATFE does provide an exception for rifled slug guns that fire a fixed shotgun shell.

[RED BEAR]

The law is the law and any exceptions are at the governments whim and can be taken away at any time. Just ask the people who bought bump stocks what there batfe compliance letter is worth.

[Ramson222]

The .950 JDJ rifle is the largest sporting use caliber allowed https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROd1_S-4c6Q essentially its a modern 4 bore rifle. I would love to shoot it at least once, wold even consider purchasing if my wallet allowed it.

[lar45]

Linebaugh made a .577 Ruger Redhawk with Batf permission. Technically he would need for that .510" .500 Linebaugh as well.

No he wouldn't, because the "Bore" diameter is .500" It's not talking about bullet diameter.


" Rifled bores may be described by the bore diameter (the diameter across the lands or high points in the rifling), or by groove diameter (the diameter across the grooves or low points in the rifling). Differences in naming conventions for cartridges can cause confusion; for example, the projectiles of the .303 British are actually slightly larger in diameter than the projectiles of the .308 Winchester, because the ".303" refers to the bore diameter in inches (bullet is .312), while the ".308" refers to the bullet diameter in inches "


http://mcgowenbarrel.com/bore-groove/

[sw282]

Does this mean l can't hunt with Great Great Great Great Granpappy's Joseph Manton ''FOUR BORE'' Sporting rifle?

[frkelly74]

I read a book once where the character was said to be using a 30/06 shotgun . The conclusion I draw is that not everyone Knows the difference. Some of those people may be formulating the regulations that we are expected to follow.

[Walks]

I think I saw something this past week that said;

All inline MuzzleLoaders using a 209 primers will now require a 4473. Nothing about waiting periods in those states requiring a wait for longguns.

Gonna be a lot of confusion.

[RED BEAR]

Going to be a lot of confusion. Welcome to the federal government.