Divorce and suicide

[Ickisrulz]

The title of this forum is Deep Theological Discussion.
It does not say Christians Only!

There are different belief systems out there that acknowledge God as creator.
This is the place to have those discussions.
Interlopers, eh?
(sigh)



Hmmm, does "Thou shalt not kill" ring a bell?

The Bible prescribed capital punishment and tells of the history of Israel being instructed to go to war. All killing is not murder nor is all killing of humans sinful.

[UKShootist]

It has always seemed to me that people pull those words from their holy book, whatever religion, whatever book, so suit the beliefs they prefer, while ingnoring those words in that same book that are inconvenient to them. The best illustration is what I quote below. It is an article / letter written in a humorous tone but which raises serious points and tends to confirm my suspicions. I suspect it will be most inconvenient to some here who prefer to extract from the Bible only those words that suit them but who will turn their back on the matter when it gets difficult. I present this in all seriousness in the hope that someone might take the challenge, although I doubt anyone will.

In her radio show, Dr Laura Schlesinger said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstance.
The following response is an open letter to Dr. Laura, penned by a US resident, which was posted on the Internet. It's funny, as well as informative:
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination ... End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God's Laws and how to follow them.

1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations.
A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of Menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15: 19-24.
The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9.
The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

5. I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death.
Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination, Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this? Are there 'degrees' of abomination?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle-room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I'm confident you can help.
Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

[Ickisrulz]

It has always seemed to me that people pull those words from their holy book, whatever religion, whatever book, so suit the beliefs they prefer, while ingnoring those words in that same book that are inconvenient to them. The best illustration is what I quote below. It is an article / letter written in a humorous tone but which raises serious points and tends to confirm my suspicions. I suspect it will be most inconvenient to some here who prefer to extract from the Bible only those words that suit them but who will turn their back on the matter when it gets difficult. I present this in all seriousness in the hope that someone might take the challenge, although I doubt anyone will.

Challenged accepted!! I am not a Jew. I am a Bible believing Christian who knows how to properly interpret and apply Scripture. Maybe not 100%, but I get the job done. This was my response to another thread that can be found here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...arts-to-follow

In short, not everything in the Bible is applicable for everyone at all times for a variety of reasons.

The Old Testament was for Israel as a contracted way to live. The Law contained components of ceremony (clean vs unclean, dietary rules, etc.), sacrifices and morality. It also contains the history of God's interaction with man in general and Israel specifically.

With the coming of Jesus, the ceremony and sacrifices no longer apply to God's people: the Church. Additionally, the Law no longer applies as a way to live in order to please God. We please God with our faith in Christ which leads to a life no longer characterized by sin. The history of God and man is valuable in showing God's loving character.

This leaves the moral commands of the Law. What does the Church do with them? God is still opposed to the immoral acts he prohibited in the Old Testament. God's people are still not to fornicate, murder, steal, hit their parents, practice homosexuality, etc. The big items are re-stated in the New Testament. In fact, all but one of the 10 Commandments are re-stated in the New Testament (keeping the Sabbath holy is not). Most importantly, Jesus summed up the moral components of the Law: "Love God with all your being and your neighbor as yourself." God will always expect this from his people and to not do so is sin.

While the moral component of the Law has not changed, God's people no longer seek to be justified by following the Law. It is important to note that the Church is not charged with enforcing moral requirements in society as Israel was. What I mean is the Church does not stone adulterers or homosexuals.

[UKShootist]

Challenged accepted!! I am not a Jew. I am a Bible believing Christian who knows how to properly interpret and apply Scripture. Maybe not 100%, but I get the job done. This was my response to another thread that can be found here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...arts-to-follow

In short, not everything in the Bible is applicable for everyone at all times for a variety of reasons.

The Old Testament was for Israel as a contracted way to live. The Law contained components of ceremony (clean vs unclean, dietary rules, etc.), sacrifices and morality. It also contains the history of God's interaction with man in general and Israel specifically.

With the coming of Jesus, the ceremony and sacrifices no longer apply to God's people: the Church. Additionally, the Law no longer applies as a way to live in order to please God. We please God with our faith in Christ which leads to a life no longer characterized by sin. The history of God and man is valuable in showing God's loving character.

This leaves the moral commands of the Law. What does the Church do with them? God is still opposed to the immoral acts he prohibited in the Old Testament. God's people are still not to fornicate, murder, steal, hit their parents, practice homosexuality, etc. The big items are re-stated in the New Testament. In fact, all but one of the 10 Commandments are re-stated in the New Testament (keeping the Sabbath holy is not). Most importantly, Jesus summed up the moral components of the Law: "Love God with all your being and your neighbor as yourself." God will always expect this from his people and to not do so is sin.

While the moral component of the Law has not changed, God's people no longer seek to be justified by following the Law. It is important to note that the Church is not charged with enforcing moral requirements in society as Israel was. What I mean is the Church does not stone adulterers or homosexuals.

And a genuinely fine effort, mirroring the views of a good friend who is also a good Christian in my eyes and only a pot one in his, but that's par for the course and as he is one of the most decent men I know I'll go with that. There still remains, though, an element of pick and mix that seems to allow the self righteous haters room for manoeuvre. But thanks again for that.

[Rizzo]

The Bible prescribed capital punishment and tells of the history of Israel being instructed to go to war. All killing is not murder nor is all killing of humans sinful.

Uh-huh, uh-huh, but you are not addressing suicide.
Where does that fit into your explanation.
Killing yourself doesn't fall in the scope of "Thou shalt not kill"?

[UKShootist]

Uh-huh, uh-huh, but you are not addressing suicide.
Where does that fit into your explanation.
Killing yourself doesn't fall in the scope of "Thou shalt not kill"?

Killing yourself doesn't involve killing?

[Walks]

I am A Jew.
I believe in the 10 Commandments. And I've broken one or two on occasion. But not Adultery. I watched that growing up.
I am the Child of Divorce, the Grandchild of Divorce and the Brother of Divorce. We have never had a Suicide. But the Divorces have been Crushing.

I watched it Tear my Family to Pieces.

[owejia]

There is always hope of salvation until you draw your last breath, after that not much chance to ask for forgiveness.

[cas]

In my opinion, the "cosmic view of things", suicide is probably worse than murder. Murder you're ending a life, but that person is innocent in the act.

With suicide, you're not only ending a life, but rejecting your own life, and not innocent in it.

(society and the law doesn't see it that way obviously)

[PowPow]

Suicide is a form of self-murder. The question is, would that murder be seen by God as pleasing in any way? If not, it's most likely sinful. (6th commandment: Thou shall not murder.) Some might say that Samson's final (and suicidal) act of collapsing the Philistine temple on himself and killing thousands of Philistines in the process was an act that would have been pleasing to God. If so, then that would most likely not be sinful.

God is the judge of what is sinful and what is not. He has given us plenty of examples in His word to use as our guide. As with anything, err on the side of humbleness and repentance if you find yourself in a gray area. Talk to your pastor/priest/rabbi/chaplain, friends, or post here. Study the word. Pray. Wash, rinse, repeat. A Christian would feel the need to repent of that sin. A Jew would atone for that sin. But, feeling unmoved to do anything in the face of one's sin is the surest sign that they're in a position to face the fullness of God's judgement.

[1hole]

It has always seemed to me that people pull those words from their holy book, whatever religion, whatever book, so suit the beliefs they prefer, while ignoring those words in that same book that are inconvenient to them. ..... I suspect it will be most inconvenient to some here who prefer to extract from the Bible only those words that suit them but who will turn their back on the matter when it gets difficult. I present this in all seriousness in the hope that someone might take the challenge, although I doubt anyone will.

I too will take up your challenge.

What you may take as a lack of confidence in our Christian beliefs is simply the lack of experience in debate with impossibly smug and dishonest challengers whom we KNOW will not listen no matter what we say. Beating our heads against a stone wall does nothing to the wall but does make our heads hurt. Fact is, most of us are simple layman so precious few of us, including me, are prepared to answer. Even so, in the off chance you are asking honest questions, let me try to explain some of it.

First, the Holy Bible is not a book; it is some two thousand years of writings by a number of inspired authors, now collected in a single volume. Virtually all the writers were Hebrews writing to Hebrews long before Christianity existed. Hebrews - Jews - then and now, don't think or write as we do today. Thus, the Bible is not a sequential chapter and verse tome designed to better fit the Western mind. We "modern westerns" first have to know a little about it. If we or it try to read it as a "modern" book it will make no sense. Suffice it to say the Old Testament is a history of early Jews and how God told them to live at that point in history. So, listing silly questions about how Jews were to live four thousand years ago in a society we can't began to understand is not as smart as the questioner thinks. Diets, "slavery", public executions, etc, were as different then as Martians are today. The connecting thread all through the OT is the coming Messiah.

Messiah - Jesus - came at the end of the dispensation of the Law of do and don't. The "Gospel" , God's new (good news!) message that all mankind can be born anew - spiritually - into the eternal family of God IF we chose to believe in (i.e., cling to, trust in, surrender to) Lord Jesus as the sole source of our salvation.

Now, with that as a thought guide, you should grasp that the acts of sin we may or may not continue to commit are indicative of our inner change into "new creatures in Christ". IF we have no life change it's safe to suppose there has been no new birth! That does NOT mean a Christian is suddenly perfected but we can know that anyone who continues to commit known sin without compunction obviously has had no new (spiritual) birth and, by that fact, is NOT a Christian at all no matter what he says - or thinks - of himself.

Thing is, what we truly believe will truly impact how we live. Thus, bank robbers, drug dealers and even queers may be Christians but, if they live such sinful lives in spite of knowing what they do is an abomination to God and they still do it without care, they are doomed to hell no matter how "good" they are or how many people wrong headed agree with them. Their trip to hell will be because they failed to rightly believe and be spiritually changed from within, not specifically for where they may stick it or to whom they stick it. Meaning right heart thinking vs. "right hand living", or Christianity by the numbers trying to earn salvation by good works is human legalism. And that won't work (see Matt 7:21-24).

Some Biblically iggerant folk think God's disgust with queers is limited to a few verses in the OT. Well, the few words in the OT should be enough to make anyone think about how God views homosexuality but the many verses in the New Testament should make anyone tremble!

I cite Lk 16:13, Rom 1:26-27, 1 Cor 6:9-11, Gal 5:19 - 21 and Rev 21:8. Read them for yourself and don't accuse me of picking and cherry picking verses to support my opinion. And think of all that when trying to grade our levels of sins on a human scale of 1 to 100. (I pray the Holy Spirit will open your soul's eyes to the obvious!)

[Smoke4320]

If you are schizophrenic and shoot yourself .. have you committed suicide or murder ?

[Arkansas Paul]

There is always hope of salvation until you draw your last breath, after that not much chance to ask for forgiveness.

This is how I was taught growing up.
Admittedly, I'm not much on religion these days and don't really consider myself anything.
If I were still in the faith, I suppose I would say that no sin is greater than another, but suicide could be considered greater because it removes the chance of repentance.

My issue with the whole "suicide is unforgiveable" thing or a "one way ticket to hell" as I was taught (I know that really isn't the question here) is that suicide is often the result of severe, debilitating mental illness. It is often described as selfish or cowardly, but I don't buy that. Don't get me wrong, if it were committed by a sane person who simply didn't want to face reality anymore, I may agree. But for mentally ill people it is not a selfish or cowardly act. They literally are convinced in their minds that their loved ones will be better off without them. They think they are so awful or so broken that their friends and family's lives would be better without them in it. This isn't a sane, informed choice. And I don't want anything to do with a God that would take a soul as tortured as these are in life, and torture them eternally on top of it.

[1hole]

.... This isn't a sane, informed choice. And I don't want anything to do with a God that would take a soul as tortured as these are in life, and torture them eternally on top of it.

Paul, there are a lot of supposed Biblical "certainties" spouted by lots of self appointed experts, all speaking with a personal authority born of ignorance because scripture doesn't address your hypothetical question of suicide at all and none of us have any special insight into the mind of God. So, I suggest you ignore such questions and trust God to do the right thing.

[Ickisrulz]

Uh-huh, uh-huh, but you are not addressing suicide.
Where does that fit into your explanation.
Killing yourself doesn't fall in the scope of "Thou shalt not kill"?

I cannot place suicide into the category of "Thou shalt not murder" simply because the Bible does not do so.

The command against murder was given with a specific punishment (the death penalty). A person who kills himself cannot receive this punishment so it stands to reason that murder and suicide are two different issues.

A murderer takes a life from someone else (it is the ultimate theft). A person who kills himself takes what belongs to him.

Like I said before, the Bible does not condemn suicide specifically. That being said, I don't believe suicide as a general rule is proper. But, I am not in one who has killed himself's shoes.

[snowwolfe]

You kill yourself your going to hell, end of story. Why? You committed murder and since you killed yourself you can't ask for forgiveness. Twist it any other way you like and your only kidding yourself.

[1hole]

You kill yourself your going to hell, end of story. Why? You committed murder and since you killed yourself you can't ask for forgiveness. Twist it any other way you like and your only kidding yourself.

Wolf, the ONLY sin that sends anyone to hell is not accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. That's a Bible fact, see John 3:17-18. And read Acts 13:39 too.

That's what the Bible says and it's clear enough. It's ONLY some odd denominational dogma that that wants people to live in constant fear of a vengeful god who lay on additional requirements of "confession" and pleading for "forgiveness" to obtain the free gift of salvation, paid for in full by Jesus' own blood. Soo ... who's kidding who?

[snowwolfe]

Your kidding yourself.

[PowPow]

Wolf, the ONLY sin that sends anyone to hell is not accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior. And that's a Bible fact, see John 3:17-18.

It's ONLY some odd denominational dogma that adds man's additional requirements of "confession" and pleading for "forgiveness" to obtain a Christians free gift of salvation paid for in full by Jesus' own blood. Soo ... who's kidding who?

One concept I think some are speaking around is called the Perseverance of the Saints in the Westminster Confession. In short, it means if you ever received God's gift of salvation, you can never lose it. John 10:28-29 and Rom 8:28-39 are good places to start. I remember it like this: once saved, always saved.

Therefore, if one was truly a Christian, meaning they had received salvation through Christ, asking for forgiveness (or not) has no effect whatsoever on their eternal outcome. Their salvation was already determined.

[1hole]

One concept I think some are speaking around is called the Perseverance of the Saints in the Westminster Confession. In short, it means if you ever received God's gift of salvation, you can never lose it. John 10:28-29 and Rom 8:28-39 are good places to start. I remember it like this: once saved, always saved.

Therefore, if one was truly a Christian, meaning they had received salvation through Christ, asking for forgiveness (or not) has no effect whatsoever on their eternal outcome. Their salvation was already determined.

That seems to put emphasis in the wrong place but, effectively, it's true; once SAVED - born again in spirit - we are always saved. Thing is, not everyone who claims to be saved really is (Matt 7:21-24).


Okay, Wolfe, I wonder, did you read the verses I gave you and, if so, how can you say the Bible doesn't get it right?

Confession of sins and pleas for forgiveness is your version of the gospel but where do you get it - from your denomination, your granny, a priest? Because your belief that anyone, Christian or not, is going to hell because some sin isn't confessed before dying is wrong. That simply isn't found in scripture (and the Bible is the strong foundation where most of us get our doctrine).

Don't you know that religious groups who demand that others must jump through their man made hoops and follow their inventive paths in order to earn Jesus' gift of salvation make a mockery of the gospel itself?

Adding human works of any kind for salvation voids the New Testament in Jesus' blood and those who teach otherwise are known as religious cultists! ???