I believe. I can never find a way to argue down you that don’t believe, but I believe in the Lord God Almighty, all knowing and all forgiving. And I believe that Good shall be triumphant in the end and that evil shall be vanquished. I believe in a hereafter.Originally Posted by dtknowles
LOYALTY ABOVE ALL ELSE, EXCEPT HONOR
"Peace is that brief glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading." -- Thomas Jefferson
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat."
Theodore Roosevelt
NRA BENEFACTOR LIFE MEMBER
I am of the mind that someday we will all know the answers. Some sooner than others. My good friend took his own life two years ago, I had no clue he would. I’d like to think we’ll meet again; when I die I’ll find out.
There are none so blind as those who chose to not see. A self important blind man will never know much about elephants because, at best, he only knows a little ... but thinks he knows it all! I wonder what blind men could learn if they could open their eyes and see.
This has been worth a try but I think it's burnt out now.
It has been scientifically proven that marriage is the #1 cause of divorce in this country!
Divorce is not a sin. One can always ask personally for forgiveness...........if they deem it necessary.
Suicide? Well............when you're dead...........YOUR DEAD! No way to ask for forgiveness then. And nobody no how in any religion can pray you out of that mess, once you go down that dark tunnel.
Last edited by bangerjim; 07-01-2019 at 05:28 PM.
I absolutely agree with JonB
When it comes to what God thinks, our best source to check that is in His word. Let's check one of my favorite pericopes from His word about what faith is.
Hebrews 11:1-3 (ESV)
If that's a bit difficult to decode, let's take a look at the NLT of the same:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation. 3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.
From this, we can conclude based on God's word that faith is an exercise of witnessing what can be seen and being given the conviction to believe it came from something that we cannot see. The only "thinking" involved here is that required to understand where that conviction came from. If you have been given that conviction, you probably don't need to think too hard about who gave it to you.1 Faith shows the reality of what we hope for; it is the evidence of things we cannot see. 2 Through their faith, the people in days of old earned a good reputation. 3 By faith we understand that the entire universe was formed at God’s command, that what we now see did not come from anything that can be seen.
So, when it comes to whether divorce or suicide are sinful, we should also consult God's thinking. God's word does provide for divorce under some circumstances, but I'm lost to find similar circumstances where suicide is okay unless you call selfless sacrifice "suicide".
Therein lies the weakness of the argument. If you have 'evidence' then whatever else you have its is not 'faith'. 'Faith' requires that there is no evidence.Faith shows the reality of what we hope for; it is the evidence of things we cannot see.
You speek of blind faith. The whole point is Christians don't follow a blind faith, it's a faith with evidence.
If there's evidence then it's no longer faith but science. Faith requires a lack of evidence. Foolishness IMO, but each to their own.
I don't know where that idea got started but accusations of "blind faith" is a common idea amongst "intellectual" agnostics and atheists but it's not true, not even close.
"Faith in God" simply means we trust God for both for things we can see and things we experience but can't yet see.
Christians can hold to a weak "blind" faith in things they have not yet had proven and, over time, develop a steel strong faith in God's promises that have repeatedly proven to be trustworthy. Experienced Christian's faith (trust) grows stronger and more certain over time.
I've seen God's promised hand working in some tuff times in my life AND in the lives of others I know well so I've grown to fully trust that those promised things I've not yet seen or experienced, i.e., heaven, will also be true. So, by your definition, my faith has become scientific fact.
The only thing blind about Christian faith is those who are blind to the evidence and by faith refuse to see what's in front of them and therefore won't believe/trust in God.
I'll note that Albert Einstine (sp?) was no Christian but even he admitted to seeing clear evidence of the hand of God in the creation. Not that such "proof" matters to highly edicated innerlecsuls.
I am quite happy to acknowledge the possible existence of a God. That's not a difficult leap of intellect to make. As I look around this world and read of history I fails to see any great evidence that he is a good or kind God and significant evidence to the contrary.I'll note that Albert Einsteine (sp?) was no Christian but even he admitted to seeing clear evidence of the hand of God in the creation. Not that such "proof" matters to highly edicated innerlecsuls.
You're thinking as a human and looking in the wrong places.
You have no idea what he77 on earth would be like if God were not moderating the evil effects of Satan and his acolytes today. His blessed restraining hand will be withdrawn during the rapidly coming seven years of earth's end-of-this-age Tribulation. You really don't want to be here for that and, if you should live to then, there is only one way to avoid experiencing the horrors of a world without God.
Neither God nor any Christian ever said there will be any peace or plenty in this life except on an individual basis. And even then, we live in the same sin damaged world as you so we're subject to the same troubles as you and everyone else, the difference is we have a comforting helper. I've seen God's spiritual help in the most difficult and painful experiences of my long life and in the lives of many others; it's a really cool and uplifting thing to experience and watch.
I can only second what 1hole is posting, but rest assured UKShootist, I respect your right to hold to, or reject, what you will. I'll only add that I have personally seen, and experienced things that are beyond scientific explanation that leads me to believe there is a power at work in this world that I attribute to the one God.
I am content that if a man is doing good for the wrong reasons then he is still doing good.
Ah, goodness. Now you posit a "fact" that is not in question, I don't know why but it looks like a dodge.
To get back on point, we are speaking of the evidence for trusting a good God, no one's challenging you 'bout how some bad men sometimes do some good things.
Interesting. This brings up in my mind several interesting questions to ponder on "good".
How does one measure goodness?
Where did that measuring system originate?
Who are we trying to please by doing good for any reason?
Can the good someone does make up for any evil they've done?
Does man have potential for life after death, e.g. eternal life, eternal d@mnation, zombiehood?
Does the good that someone does for the wrong reasons have any effect on their eternal condition?
Does the good that someone does for any reason earn credit towards having eternal life?
How does one measure goodness?
Do we need to measure it. Isn't greater and lesser goodness close enough, it is not like a bank ledger.
Where did that measuring system originate?
Don't think there are many agree upon measuring systems.
Who are we trying to please by doing good for any reason?
That is a good question to ask yourself and not a good one to ask others. Hope that they ask themselves. You can do good just because it feels good, makes you happy, makes the world around you better for you and yours.
Can the good someone does make up for any evil they've done?
Yes, it they repent and make amends but you can't buy a stairway to heaven.
Does man have potential for life after death, e.g. eternal life, eternal d@mnation, zombiehood?
Does or can anyone know for sure or if they are sure might they be fooling themselves.
Does the good that someone does for the wrong reasons have any effect on their eternal condition?
No but the idea that there are eternal conditions is an open question. Your motives are more important than the outcome if you thinking in terms of eternal conditions.
Does the good that someone does for any reason earn credit towards having eternal life?
To answer that you would have to know the mind of God but I don't think any reason is good. Only good done for good reason would count if there is such as eternal life.
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
Why is the Chapel forum a haven for agnostics and atheists? They are certainly welcome to their beliefs but should they not petition the site for their own forum?
"My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
Leonard Ravenhill
Thanks for giving it some thought, Tim. I've placed mine under yours for comparison.
How does one measure goodness?
Since we were created in God's image, we are imprinted with some awareness on our hearts of God's system of justice. (Genesis 3:22, Romans 2:15)
Where did that measuring system originate?
God (Genesis 3:22)
Who are we trying to please by doing good for any reason?
Good works flow from us as a result of our faith, not from our own prideful and selfish acts. (James 2:14-26)
Can the good someone does make up for any evil they've done?
God's judgement does not work from a balance scale. When He looks upon you, does He see sin? If you stand alone, the answer is a resounding YES, ALWAYS. When Christ stands before Him on your behalf, however, He sees no sin. That's because no man has perfectly obeyed God's law, except God's son, Jesus Christ, the son of man. (John 8:28-29, Romans 8)
Does man have potential for life after death, e.g. eternal life, eternal d@mnation, zombiehood?
This one deserves a direct quote of John 3:16-18 (NIV): "16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son."
Does the good that someone does for the wrong reasons have any effect on their eternal condition?
My answers above already cover this.
Does the good that someone does for any reason earn credit towards having eternal life?
My answers above already cover this as well.
The answer to the questions of divorce, suicide, their sinfulness (or not), and ultimate outcome for our eternal condition lies in one place and one place only: Jesus Christ.
When you stand before God for judgement how can you be sure "Christ stands before Him on your behalf?"
I believe that God can look into your Heart and Soul and know who you are and judge you base on that. You may believe that Jesus does the same when he decides to whether to stand by our side or not.
Tim
Words are weapons sharper than knives - INXS
The pen is mightier than the sword - Edward Bulwer-Lytton
The tongue is mightier than the blade - Euripides
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