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Thread: In the beginning....

  1. #1
    Boolit Master


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    In the beginning....

    Yes...my struggle starts here in Genesis...the very foundation of our Bible and faith.

    It is all plausible until I get to the sixth day. And so my first question is simple...."Is each day in Genesis a 24 hour day?"
    If so, this leads to my second question...."How is it possible for creatures to have existed before man?"
    This second question assumes fossil remains predate man...as is conventionally believed and taught.

    A bit of background. I believe in God and accepted Jesus as my savior just under two years ago. I spend more time in the New Testament as I feel it provides more relevance in my journey to be a better Christian but realize it is only 25% of the Bible and that the OT cannot be ignored and there are many references to the OT in the NT. I study from the NIV.

    At my current stage of development, or lack of it, I have concluded the following:
    First, Jesus's teachings are my road map for how I should live.
    Second, the Bible may not be perfectly written or translated, but that does mean we throw the baby out with the bath water.
    Third, and this is the big one, God is not perfect. His love is perfect, but He makes mistakes. There is no passage I can find in the Bible where His perfection is stated. It is man who has held Him up as perfect.
    Fourth, I trust in God but have little trust in anything man has touched...including religion.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Please enlighten me about God's mistakes?

  3. #3
    Boolit Master


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    He allows Mohammadens to exist.
    I HATE auto-correct


    Happiness is a Warm GUN & more ammo to shoot in it.

    My Experience and My Opinion, are just that, Mine.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Don, a wise man once penned, "There is more faith in honest doubt than all the creeds." Seems to me the fact that you are pondering these things is as Paul defined faith, "the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." I believe the more we seek the more we will find to satisfy our eternal souls until, "face to face, we shall know as we are known." You have believed in your heart and confessed with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord. Thank you for that testimony today and may God continue to bless you in your walk with Him and your desire to grow closer day by day. hal
    "My main ambition in life is to be on the devil's most wanted list."
    Leonard Ravenhill

  5. #5
    Boolit Master RED BEAR's Avatar
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    You believe or you don't its that simple. It doesn't say that each day was 24 hours so don't try to inject your definition of a day. If you don't believe i guess so be it. Thats your choice.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy UKShootist's Avatar
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    Watch the film "Inherit The Wind". It is based upon the Scopes Trial of 1925. It answers your basic question.

    Your statement " I trust in God but have little trust in anything man has touched...including religion." should be written thus:-











    I trust in God but have little trust in anything man has touched...including religion.
    The lion shall lie down with the lamb, but the lamb won't get much sleep.

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy jeepvet's Avatar
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    First of all, please believe me when I say that I am not trying to force my beliefs on anyone. They are just that, my beliefs. I have reasons for believing the way I do but not enough typing skills nor time to expound further.

    Question one, is each day in creation a 24 hour day? Maybe but not necessarily. God is God, He can do whatever He wants. How fast was the earth rotating in that time? Only God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit know. When did a day become 24 hours? Same answer. Was it at creation, after the flood or some other time? Does it matter in the larger scheme of things?

    Question two, how could animals exist before man? Why not? Does man really need to be around for animals to exist? It is my belief that animals existed before man because the Bible says that God created them first. God made everything, so God made science, so science proves the existence of God. How many scientists have set out to prove that God does not exist and ended up becoming strong, faithful followers of God?

    It is my belief that the Bible is perfectly written but maybe not always perfectly translated. That is why it is sometimes very beneficial to go back to the original language for clarification on some points. I think that the NIV translation is one of the better translations as far as accuracy. It is translated from most of the earliest manuscripts in the original languages, not from other translations. Does it have some problems? You bet, anything that man is involved in does. That is why it is good to have a trusted mentor or three to help you. Two or four heads are always better than one. But the best mentor is always the Holy Spirit.

    Now for the Big One. God is not perfect and He makes mistakes. Sorry but I have to disagree with that one. God is God. Nothing was made that He did not make. He made everything just as He wanted it. The only way that I can see for someone to think that God made a mistake is to look at it through the eyes and wisdom of man. I Corinthians 3:19 says, "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight." And I Corinthians 1:20b says, "Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?" Our human brains are not capable of understanding the greatness of God. He sees all and knows all from eternity past until eternity future. God did not make a mistake, we just can't see how what we don't understand fits into God's plan.

    Please do not read this as a put down to anyone. I am trying to explain what my beliefs are and why I believe that way. If you believe another way, that is ok. But please continue to study with an open mind and be receptive to the Holy Spirit. Don't believe something just because you want to or someone told you. Study on the matter, ask questions, pray about, and listen and wait for the answer from the Holy Spirit.

    You seem to be on the right path. Keep going.

    God's blessings upon you.
    "Nothing is more uncommon than common sense." Benjamin Franklin

  8. #8
    Boolit Master


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    In Exodus 20,the commandment about the Sabboth instructs us to rest on the 7th day (24 hours) as God rested on the seventh day during creation. This is only one word in Hebrew for day used all throughout the Bible. I question why God strung out creation over 6 days, why not everything in one day. I fully believe He had the power to create all in one day but chose 6.
    How can God have a perfect love but other imperfections? If imperfect in one area how does it not spill over into his love?
    The Bible is the best documented ancient book ever. There are about 5800 documents about the Bible,that have near perfect agreement with each other. This spans over sevral hundred years. The Bible says the Bible was given under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit so originally it was perfect. There have been mistakes by man preserving and translating them but those errors have been eliminated or at least exposed over time. None of the "mistakes" have any change in the overall message of God. In other words they don't amount to a hill of beans. You can believe the Bible as written. A good book on this is written by author Lightfoot and the title is something like "How did we get our Bible". My copy is out on loan.
    You doubt if man has preserved the Bible correctly but your position mantains that man is totally correct about times past. There are several good books about creation. The methods about dating fossils millions of years ago is based on a lot of mans speculation about the past. Graet error is induced with this speculation.
    How can the weather man not get the weather correct for the next 48 hours but man can accurately know the past 4.4 billion years. Do you belive that your 276,000,000th million grandpaw was a fish? That was given as truth in the theory of evolution.
    There is a lot of difference between "In the begining" and "In the begining God created".
    I understad your doubt as they are simolar to mine. I have worked through mine to come to the conclusion thar God id perfect,His Word is perfect and we should base our faith in it and it alone, Beware of man not God.

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
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    having several friends of different theological persuasions. many of those questions have been posed. and I've used the following answers for them.

    To follow some of the things listed. only human hubris would deign to assume a day to a person, is the same as a day to God.

    as for any of the rest. ironically - a movie made by a decidedly anti christian person perhaps holds the best line as to inaccuracies, omissions, and poor clarity in the various texts, and to the endless debates, arguments, and wars brought about from said debates and arguments. and all of which come from people trying to take things far to literally - and forgetting the idea behind the words.

    God is perfect. However, religion is flawed, because man is flawed.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master


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    Let me add something else. Man wants you to believe "The present is the key to the past". This "rule" is that all things happen at the same rate and under the same laws now present. The Laws of Nature, the laws of Science,Thermodynamics and others are constant. God can and does work outside these rules. With his powers God can work outside the present time,space and matter.
    The Bible uses many examples: an axe head floating,a donkey talking,and Jesus raising the dead.

  11. #11
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    Consider this, is the OT a history of the earth or a linage and promise of a coming savior?
    grit yer teeth an pull the trigger

  12. #12
    Boolit Master GhostHawk's Avatar
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    As to mistakes.
    First God tried "the Law" as handed down to Moses. Under the law how many were saved? Not many I think if any.

    So then he tried again, sending his son to be born as a man, to be offered as first fruits, sacrificed for our sins. If the law was not a mistake, why did he have to sacrifice his son?

    "Fourth, I trust in God but have little trust in anything man has touched...including religion."

    Brother, we are in total agreement. IMO mankind has taken Christs bride and turned the church into the painted ***** of Babylon. It seems we as humans have an infinite capacity to screw stuff up.

    But there are good churches out there. This winter we discovered Little Farms UCC in New Orleans. Mission based church which is centered on helping others in need. I walked into that church wearing plain black slacks, a camo tshirt and hat. And when the preacher asked the congregation to greet each other and give the handshake of fellowship I was greeted like I grew up there. Inside of 2 minutes I truly felt welcome, loved, and at home.

    And a few weeks later I took communion for the first time in 40 years. With tears running down my face. After the service when everyone else headed for the door I knelt at the alter. My heart full to overflowing. Yet feeling like there was no way I could be forgiven my stubbornness and pride.

    As I am kneeling there, asking for the Lord to forgive me I heard loud and clear.
    "William Thomas, you have done nothing to be forgiven for, Arise, go forth"

    About the time I hit the door the preacher saw me, saw my face shiny with tears. Asked if I was ok. So I told her. She gave me a big hug. Patted me on the back. Said she hoped to see me again soon.

    Let me see, May, June, July, August, Sept, Oct. ehhh, only 6 months to go.

    Keep reading Dverna, keep asking questions, keep believing, keep listening for that still small voice. Keep the faith brother. Keep walking in his will.

  13. #13
    Boolit Master


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    Here is the response from the Pastor of the church I attended Sunday:

    Hi Don! Your email was forwarded on to me. I am so glad you were able to be with us last Sunday. I trust you enjoyed the service. I applaud you for your thoughtful questions. In regard to the days of creation, I do believe they were six 24-hour literal days. I will be teaching on this next Sunday so I hope you will return.

    In the meantime, Let me share with you three links that I think will be helpful for you. The first deals with a 6-day creation. The second deals with dinosaurs and humans. The third deals with why you can trust our Bibles today.

    https://answersingenesis.org/days-of-creation/

    https://answersingenesis.org/dinosaurs/humans/

    https://alwaysbeready.com/bible-evidence?id=99

    Many blessings!

    Scott Distler
    Lead Pastor
    E-Free Church
    Gaylord/Sault Ste. Marie
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  14. #14
    Boolit Master exile's Avatar
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    "As for God, his way is perfect:
    The Lord's word is flawless;
    he shields all who take refuge in him."

    2 Samuel 22:31 (N.I.V.)
    "There is not a single instance in history in which civil liberty was lost, and religious liberty preserved entire. If therefore we yield up our temporal property, we at the same time deliver the conscience into bondage." --John Witherspoon, The Dominion of Providence Over the Passions of Men. 1776

    "The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times." Psalm 12:6 (E.S.V.)

  15. #15
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by exile View Post
    "As for God, his way is perfect:
    The Lord's word is flawless;
    he shields all who take refuge in him."

    2 Samuel 22:31 (N.I.V.)
    This is part of David's Song of Praise. It is not God stating He is perfect...it is David praising Him. David's opinion....
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  16. #16
    Boolit Master exile's Avatar
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    God's perfection, His holiness, (see Isaiah 6:1-5, 1 Peter 1:15-16) is an essential doctrine of the Christian faith, possibly the most important attribute of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit expressed in both the Old and New Testament scriptures.

    Apart from the holiness (perfection) of God, why would we have any desire to worship Him? And He is worthy of worship!

    exile
    Last edited by exile; 05-08-2019 at 01:07 PM.
    "There is not a single instance in history in which civil liberty was lost, and religious liberty preserved entire. If therefore we yield up our temporal property, we at the same time deliver the conscience into bondage." --John Witherspoon, The Dominion of Providence Over the Passions of Men. 1776

    "The words of the Lord are pure words, like silver refined in a furnace on the ground, purified seven times." Psalm 12:6 (E.S.V.)

  17. #17
    Boolit Master


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    Quote Originally Posted by exile View Post
    God's perfection, His holiness, (see Isaiah 6:1-5, 1 Peter 1:15-16) is an essential doctrine of the Christian faith, possibly the most important attribute of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit expressed in both the Old and New Testament scriptures.

    Apart from the holiness (perfection) of God, why would we have any desire to worship Him? And He is worthy of worship!

    exile
    It is my error in defining "perfect" that has caused confusion.

    God is holy and does not sin...I get that.

    God may not make perfect decisions in every matter.

    One example being the 613 Laws in the Old Testament. If man could not obey the one law that Adam and Eve were given, or the 10 Commandments; it seems strange to expect man to abide by 613 of them. In the end, God gave up on us....He knew (as He likely always did) that man was never going to be holy...His design of man predisposed us to sin. And thus Jesus was sent to allow for our salvation as we could never save ourselves by living a holy life. That is one example of less than perfect decisions to achieve His goal.

    Another is the death of babies...difficult for me to understand that. Or the murder, rape, or abuse of children. A perfect God would not allow that to happen.
    Don Verna

    NRA Endowment Member

  18. #18
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    We have no direct explanation of how long a "day" is in Genesis, so ALL theories about how long those days were is reflective only of our own prejudices and the limitations of our intellects and imaginations. However, FWIW, if anything, I'll offer my take on it. First off, we commonly refer to a "days work" when we're talking about a job that only took a portion of a day. It's just a figurative way of expressing ourselves. These figurative uses of words in our languages are common in all cultures using all languages. A sense of humor and sometimes, a bit of cynicism, seems to spur these figurative uses of words to mean something not precisely as they are normally seen to mean. It is my theory that the author of Genesis used the word "day" in more of a symbolic sort of way. God intended to do a certain thing, and to Him, the time it took to achieve that thing was one of His "days." It may have spanned eons. God isn't limited by our worldly uses of words. He works very differently than we do, so why should not His days differ from our own, simple time limits???

    Then too, the best evidence we have to go on is what science has determined is the most likely story of how or universe came into being. Given that, it seems very unlikely that the "days" referred to in Genesis were merely our 24 hour days. And too, at the time our world was being brought into being, the earth had not, for most of those days, yet come into being! So there again, we are left with the conclusion, however tentative and faulty it might be, that again, the "days" referred to in Genesis are NOT our now commonly referred to 24 hour days.

    My take on the creation story in Genesis is that it was never MEANT to be a "tell-all" about the creation, but a mere generalized accounting of how it all began. After all, what did the average, or even most exceptional people want or need MORE than that, at that time??? So again, we are left having to conclude that it is merely a figurative and generalized story of creation, and NOT a scientific account that can be taken and disected, analyzed, etc. until even the most agnostic people are satisfied.

    It IS worth noting, however, that the order outlined in Genesis of what happened, is EXACTLY the order science now believes to be the way things developed into the universe and world we now know today. All that work! And now we expect to go back and fit all of it into one of our present 24-hour days? Pretty high folly, I'd say. But again, that's just me.

    When evaluating things, we HAVE to go with some sort of evidence, and not just some concept that we've created in our own minds. And if we're really seeking a REAL answer instead of just to satisfy our own ideas, we'll go with the best available evidence. And all of that seems to me to indicate that those "days" referred to in Genesis are NOT our now commonly recognized 24 hour days, but a "day" in God's efforts, and He is very patient and exacting, and His days can be as long as necessary for Him to achieve His ends. I think this is the only rational way to analyze this section of the Bible, but others always have other ideas.

    In reality, it seems that we humans find it very difficult NOT to try to fit the facts to our ideas, rather than visa versa. But wisdom seems to come only when we accomplish that sometimes difficult method of analysis.

    And as an aside, I remember a world where once, people asking questions sought REAL answers - answers that not only satisfied our curiosity, but proved out in real experience as well. Nowadays, an awful lot of folks seem to try to fit whatever's around them into their concept of "reality" that exists largely only in their heads. We truly HAVE changed, and the politics and business of today seems to reflect those changes, and promise to change our world yet drastically MORE in the future. I'm sort'a glad I"m an old man now. I have lived in the best time in history to have been born and be alive! And I am so grateful for that! Blessed be the name of the Lord forever! Amen.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master


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    The law was given to show mankind that God has always looked at our faith to determine our eternity. God did not make a mistake by introducing the Law. God did it to so man could realize that he could not follow rules and that faith was the pleasing factor of God. The just shall live by faith has existed through all dispensations. Before the law, Abraham had faith to move into the land God showed him, Noah had faith to build an Ark and so on.. So when Christ died the ceremonial part of the Law was done away with. It was not God adjusting his plan. All people both Jews and Gentiles at all times could please God through faith.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master
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    " I acknowledge that I do not understand the processes of creation, but I accept the fact of it. I grant that I cannot explain the miracles of the Bible, and do not attempt to do so, but I accept God's word."... President Thomas S. Monson, quoting Stephen L. Richards

    And, that sums it up for me.


    Well said, jeepvet!

    ..."Now for the Big One. God is not perfect and He makes mistakes. Sorry but I have to disagree with that one. God is God. Nothing was made that He did not make. He made everything just as He wanted it. The only way that I can see for someone to think that God made a mistake is to look at it through the eyes and wisdom of man. I Corinthians 3:19 says, "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight." And I Corinthians 1:20b says, "Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?" Our human brains are not capable of understanding the greatness of God. He sees all and knows all from eternity past until eternity future. God did not make a mistake, we just can't see how what we don't understand fits into God's plan.

    Please do not read this as a put down to anyone. I am trying to explain what my beliefs are and why I believe that way. If you believe another way, that is ok. But please continue to study with an open mind and be receptive to the Holy Spirit." ...
    Last edited by sniper; 05-09-2019 at 12:02 PM.

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