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Thread: 45-70 Loads....your thoughts.

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    45-70 Loads....your thoughts.

    I am a noob here, so if this is not the right spot let me know, and really this is the only thing I have shot a cast bullet in.....sorry all....I will come around.


    45-70 Trapdoor.....questions.

    First off I have reloaded for quite a few years, but I have not loaded for anything this old....and this "weak".....and I want to keep my face....for some reason the wife likes it....I really can't figure out why....
    I am going to cross post this on several different forums....most of you guys roam around on different "gun sites" so you might see this same stuff in other places....also the reason it is G-rated.....can anything gun related be G-Rated....not sure in this day and age....anyhoo....here we go.

    First off I am working under the impression that less pressure is better. This is why I am not even looking at things like Trail Boss....people tend to look at that for 45-70, but I don't think that is real wise....for my first reason in going the way I am going....

    Pressure.

    I am going under the thought that keeping the pressure as low as I can in this old girl is the best thing to do....all my loads are published to be under 20,000 CUP, 20k kept coming up as the don't go over this in researching Trapdoor loads......light trail boss loads are over 20k, same with most other "pistol" powders....I just don't think that is wise, and in my initial research the only reason people are using powders like trail boss is you use so little of it....well ok, but if I am going to pinch pennies like that I really should look at another hobby.

    Below are the loads, FPS readings, and what the published CUP is for each....The "control" I used Remington Green and Gold box that is labeled "safe for all rifles".

    So in looking at this....the first entry is the remington.

    The second would be read as 46 grains of 4046 published CUP of 17900 and published FPS of 1534....My measured FPS readings are below this.

    I only shot one round of 3031 as it was just so darn fast....I did pull one down and it is correct, but that fast I am a little worried about.....these loads are all with a 405 grain bullet out of a standard Trapdoor rifle, not carbine....The bullets are from Missouri Bullet....they are about 10 minutes from where I live.

    I am going to move to BP on this rifle just to have that experience.....it is how this gun was shot in the day, and I really want to shoot it as it was issued.

    I am planning on using this in a CMP match....I think this will be a bit fun....and who knows all that black powder smoke might give me an edge. I think it will be fun to shoot something that is not common in this game....I do tend to do this, it is the way I am wired. I have an AR and a Garand, but never shot them in CMP.....I like the odd and different stuff....to me the fun is taking something and using it where it is really an underdog....it also covers up my poor shooting

    Looking for thoughts on all of this.

    Here we go....

    Remington green and gold box:

    1183

    1213

    1214

    46 Grains of 4064 CUP 17900 at 1534

    1462

    1459

    1450

    45.6 Grains 4895 18900 CUP 1496

    1565

    1592

    1559

    40 Grains Varget 15600 Cup 1392

    1227

    1264

    1245

    1245

    45.5 Grains 3031 17300 CUP 1597

    1721

  2. #2
    Boolit Mold
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    I wanted to add there is a published load for a VV powder...I don't remember off hand what it is but it was to be a cup in the 14000's and fps in the 1300....IIRC. I am going to order some of that up...people speak really well of VV powder it is just not real common where I am for some reason.

  3. #3
    Boolit Grand Master

    Wayne Smith's Avatar
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    Slug your barrel, most of them are large. You need to fit your boolit to your chamber/barrel.

    If you are using the 405gr boolit with BP crimp. The Army found that they had to crimp this boolit to get complete powder burn. The 520gr boolit has enough inertia to accomplish this, the 405gr. doesn't.

    Go up to the Black Powder Cartridge section and read - there is a plethora of information there for the 45-70 and for the Trapdoor.
    Wayne the Shrink

    There is no 'right' that requires me to work for you or you to work for me!

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    Having owned a good number of 45-70's at this point, I don't shoot anything in any of them that's above what's listed for Trapdoors....and a Trapdoor is the only one I don't own. Here's why: I have yet to recover even one bullet out of quite a few whitetails I've shot. Doesn't matter the angle or distance, so far (I repeat, so far). Everything I shoot out of the gun groups fantastic, some are a true 1moa at 100 yards. All my loads that I use on a regular basis shoot sub 2moa at that distance. They don't beat me up, and they're fun to shoot for extended sessions. All are under 1500fps. In fact, they're mostly around 1400fps. Summary: none of them are hard on me, all are hard on the deer, and they all shoot good. Also, they're safe in any gun. I just don't see the purpose of going further with it.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master
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    For a 405 gr try 38.0 grs of imr 3031 it's pretty close to Bp velocity. The service load for a td was a 500 gr RN at 1185 fps. A lot of folks try to magnumize a .45-70 and it's not necessary that 500 gr slug was designed to go through a cavalry horse nose to tail at 600 yards with black powder as the propellant long before smokeless came out.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    1Hawkeye is correct. I have a 1967 Lyman reloading manual (my first manual) that has "factory equivalent" handloads. For 45-70 with a 405 grain cast bullet, the powder is IMR 3031, the powder charge is 38.5 grains. 3031, a single base powder, is easy to ignite so CCI primers work well.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Be sure to check out the Black Powder Cartridge section too. Lots of good info there.

  9. #9
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    i'd never use anything but real black powder trap door hand loads in a real vintage trap door rifle, and totally avoid all smokeless loads.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master scattershot's Avatar
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    You might take a look at 5744 powder. It’s well thought of in the old punkin’ roller. I have used it myself, but it’s been so long ago I can’t remember the details. Also, if your rifle is an antique, I don’t know if I would shoot jacketed bullets from it (Remington) or at least very sparingly. Good luck with a great rifle and cartridge, and welcome to the forum.


    As a point of interest, the original carbine load was reduced from 45/70/500 to 45/55/405 due to the recoil in the lighter rifle.
    Last edited by scattershot; 05-08-2019 at 10:10 AM.
    "Experience is a series of non-fatal mistakes"


    Disarming is a mistake free people only get to make once...

  11. #11
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    aa5744 pretty much has taken the place of the discontinued sr4759 for bpcr guns (rollers, sharps, etc). i used both a lot before i'd seen the light, er, black.

    for any antique gun i'd wanna stick with real black powder and lubed or paper patched alloy bullets - loads these guns were made for and if the gun is safe these loads will be both safe and accurate. stick with black.

  12. #12
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1Hawkeye View Post
    For a 405 gr try 38.0 grs of imr 3031 it's pretty close to Bp velocity. The service load for a td was a 500 gr RN at 1185 fps. A lot of folks try to magnumize a .45-70 and it's not necessary that 500 gr slug was designed to go through a cavalry horse nose to tail at 600 yards with black powder as the propellant long before smokeless came out.
    Thanks....It just seemed to me that I was pushing things just too darn fast. IMHO it really is not needed.....and really not needed if I am just poking holes in paper and ringing steel.

    I will work up a batch of 3031 with your recipe....I was wanting something in the range of 1000fps.

    And to comment of a few others that I am just too lazy to quote.....

    Yes I am using CCI primers, about all I use.

    The Remington store bought was really to just get a good "base line" on something labeled "safe for all rifles"....I plan on only doing lead down this guy....once that box of remington is gone it is gone.

    I have read back in forth on people only using BP on these older girls....really looking for a good AMERICAN FLAVOR falling block, as I really don't want to go messing with history and changing out one of the vast foreign flavors that are out there.....yea I know they are pretty common and not too expensive....I just feel that unless it is just a total mess it has existed this long in spanish or egypt.....egyptian seems to be pretty common.....I really don't want to make one into something more common....and that I already load for.

    Anyhoo....I drifted....I have read quite a bit about only BP in these, and I might end up going there....I have been reading the BP section and will likely go that way at some point....

  13. #13
    Boolit Master
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    My experience with 3031: The only time in my life that I ever had a problem with powder was with 3031 in a 45-70. I was trying out a good many loads for one of the guns I had and one of the loads was with 3031 and 405g bullets. My load was heavier than yours, but not by much. When the trigger was pulled I heard a mild report and nothing seemed to come out of the barrel. I opened the action (it was a Sharps) and the powder was in the barrel in a large lump that looked like plastic. It was a dirty brown color. The bullet was half way down the barrel. Long story short: 3031 can cause this to happen with reduced loads and not using a filler. I've read other reports on other sites stating this has happened to other shooters. FWIW, I shoot thousands of rounds a year and I've been shooting for over sixty years. I'm far from inexperienced. I'd look at 5744 if you want reduced pressure and decent accuracy.....closer to black powder.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master
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    Almost the same thing happened to me with a cast 400gr bullet and 40 grains of either Ramshot Exterminator or Reloader7. My problem was caused by using a case from Buffalo Bore ammo and its small rifle primer with a graphite coated double base powder and CCI small rifle primer. My cartridge was a hangfire. I pulled the bullet and most of the powder poured out, but tapping the case on my palm produced a small chunk of "charcoal." Switching to a WSR primer solved the problem.

  15. #15
    Boolit Mold
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    I have had good luck with CCI primers. All these old rifles I tend to load on the soft side.....that and my wife is really recoil sensitive....hell I am as well now that I have 5 bits of titanium holding my head on. I have down loaded her 30 carbine for years now....yes she is the only one that I know of that will bruise when shooting a 30 carbine, and yes it is tight against her shoulder....I think her skin is thin like a grape or something. Finding we all hurt a bit after shooting after we both crested 50....no fun shooting a canon.

    Anyhoo...sorry for the ramble....if it ends up raining again this weekend I will mix up a few of the suggestions here and let all know how things go....I really need to get off my duff and check out that quickload software.

  16. #16
    Boolit Buddy


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    My favorite 45-70 load is a 405 gr lead bullet and 12 grains of Trail Boss. It has very little recoil and is relatively quiet. A great plinking round.

  17. #17
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    FPGT72 Welcome to Cast Boolits (PM sent)

    Lyman cast boolits #4


    my favorite is .5 grn more 45-70 trailboss 12.5 400grn

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy
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    I helped a friend load up some Marlin only loads for his 1895 Cowboy. I first told him he really didn't want to shoot Marlin only loads, but he didn't listen. I think most Marlin owners/loaders have to try it at least once, I know I still have some I loaded for myself and didn't shoot.

    IIRC the load he used was a 300gr commercial cast over 35 gr of IMR 4198, more of a borderline Marlin load and hi end Springfield load. I think he fired 5-10 of them, I didn't tell him they really aren't hi end Marlin loads

    A 45/70 with bp level loads will shoot through pretty much anything in NA, the only thing the Marlin loads do is dig a bigger divot on the other side. Next time I load for 45/70 will be the Lee 500/5r over 2400 or 4759 for about 1200 fps.
    Last edited by goryshaw; 05-10-2019 at 10:48 PM.

  19. #19
    Boolit Grand Master


    Larry Gibson's Avatar
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    I shoot quite a bit of IMR3031 and IMR4895 under 400 - 410 gr cast (my own and commercial) in my H&R TDs (Officer's Model and Carbine). The H&Rs have modern .458 groove diameter barrels on them so I size .459. For my original TD I use my own soft cast bullets that are sized .4615. The problem with those 2 smokeless powders and other similar ones is that by the time you get the powders to burn efficiently by increasing the charge and thus the pressure the velocity is too high. The solution is to use a Dacron (polyester filler).

    Here is 35 gr IMR 3031 under a commercial cast bullet with a Dacron filler. Range was 100 yards and the M1879 rear sight was used. Without the Dacron filler the same load would barely stay on the 8.5x 11" target paper. The pressure was measured in the H&R Officer's Model at 25,500 psi (28 - 29,000 psi is the SAAMI MAP for TD loads). Velocity at the muzzle was 1218 fps.

    Attachment 241486

    Here are two 10 shot tests with 36 gr IMR4895. The group shown is with a 3/4 - 1 gr Dacron filler under the same bullet out of the same rifle. The pasted holes (4 were off the 8.5x11" target paper) were without the Dacron filler. With the Dacron filler the muzzle velocity was 1391 fps at 22,400 psi.

    Attachment 241487

    AA5744 also benefits greatly with the use of a Dacron filler in the 45-70. Here is 25 gr AA5744 with a Dacron filler, same rifle, same bullet, same 100 yards. The muzzle velocity was 1240 fps at 26,700 psi.

    Attachment 241488
    Larry Gibson

    “Deficient observation is merely a form of ignorance and responsible for the many morbid notions and foolish ideas prevailing.”
    ― Nikola Tesla

  20. #20
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    be aware of using fillers and/or wads with double based powders such as the popular aa5744. they're no longer allowed at the quigley match ...

    https://www.quigleymatch.com/safety.html

    Smokeless powder is allowed for modern reproduction rifles using safe published data. No over-powder wads are allowed if using a double-base powder (over-powder wads are cotton or Dacron or similar wads pushed down into the cartridge case over the powder column with the intention of holding the powder column tight against the primer and leaving an air space between the over-powder wad and the base of the bullet or card wad at the base of the bullet). The most popular one used at the Quigley Match is Accurate Arms 5744. If you don’t know if your powder is double-base, check the manufacturer’s website and find the Material Safety Data Sheet for the powder. If the composition in Part 3 includes nitroglycerin it is a double-base powder. Do not use smokeless powder to achieve “hot loads” or exceed published loading data. Smokeless powder should only be used to achieve black powder equivalent loads. When cartridge case powder fill is less than 50% extreme caution should be used to avoid the possibility of double charging. You must physically check every case!

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check