7.65x53 load

[DonH]

Larry Gibson, I agree with your statement regarding "weakening due to age" of steel. I would add that failure of steel due to stress occurs BEFORE catastrophic failure. The controlling facture is YIELD strength. Up to a given alloy's yield strength the steel is elastic under stress and will resume it pre-stress state once stress is removed. Once yield strength is exceeded the steel will not withstand the same level of stress as it originally did.
The caveat with old milsurp rifle is that we do not know what has been done to it before we get it. That said, any properly designed firearm is designed so the strength exceeds the required strength by a safety margin.

[Larry Gibson]

"The caveat with old milsurp rifle is that we do not know what has been done to it before we get it."

Excellent caveat.......there are indeed a lot of older milsurps which have been abused. However, close examination can reveal that and I distinctly mentioned use of milsurp and factory level psi loads in those milsurps that have not been abused. The biggest problems are corrosion and fire or some sort of modification by "bubba". As mentioned though close examination will reveal such. There are also many commercially made "modern" firearms that are abused, been in fires and/or improperly modified by "bubba" out there also. Many of them also approach the age of many milsurps. I see no reason to restrict ammunition to low end loads instead of milsurp and factory equivalent loads (that is not "hot rodding" or "over loading" BTW) because there may ne an abused action out there somewhere. If the action and barrel are good then I see no problems with such loads.

[swheeler]

The old Speer number 8 manual is always referenced as being notorious for "hot loads" and I see they had published max load of 47 gr H380 with their .311 150 gr bullet, but the max was dropped back to 46 grs by Speer manual #9. Hodgdon's powder manuals 23 thru #26 show 46 grs as max with a 150 gr bullet. I use Hornady data since I'm using Hornady 150 gr .312 bullets their manual #9 shows 44.4 grs H380 as max, but I started at 40 and worked up. Us old timers ALL know H380 is very temperature sensitive spherical powder, always has been. If I want to drive a 30 cal 150 gr bullet 600 fps faster I'll just use an 06, if I think I need 1000 fps faster I'll use 300 Win. I outgrew the hot roddin' years ago, heck I even wear my seat belt!

edit: just went back and looked at the "Evita" target of 3 shot groups, I do not see the TEMPERATURE listed???? wonder how that 8.1 grs over Hornady's published max for that same bullet would act on a nice Montana 110 deg F August day. I like to show temp and extreme spreads on anything I record, I can shoot from -35F to +100 F.

[Larry Gibson]

Swheeler

The question was asked by abunaitoo who lives in Hawaii, not you, who lives in Montana. Ergo the answer (my post of the pressure tested H380 load for the 150 gr Hornady in the 7.65x53 cartridge) was directed at him, not you. Now I’m sure, based on numerous of his previous posts that abunaitoo follows the tenant of “always work up to a load”. It appears from your last post that you perhaps think he’s not smart enough to abide by that tenant......? Maybe you would just load em up and go shoot em in 100+ degree Montana heat but I’m betting abunaitoo won’t over there in Hawaii......

That being as it may let’s discuss some facts about pressures in the M91 chambered in 7.65 Argentine since you brought up the Hornady load data. Where does Hornady mention in their manuals (any of them) what the pressure their 7.65 data produces? Fact is they don’t. The Hornady Manuals don’t list or state any pressure the 7.65 Argentine cartridge is loaded to because the 7.65 Belgian or Argentine cartridges are not listed as SAAMI spec’d cartridges. You also mention older Speer manuals but didn’t mention Speer dropped the cartridge from their manuals after #9 because it is not a SAAMI cartridge. Lyman lists loads for the 7.65 Argentine Mauser up through its current #50 manual. Hodgdon doesn’t list any pressure data for their 7.65 H380 loads either.

So let’s look at some actual measured pressures for the loads listed in Hornady, Hodgdon and Lyman manuals along with Hornady’s Custom factory 7.75 Argentine ammunition (loaded with the .312 Hornady 150 SP), some Belgian 7.65 and some Argentine milsurp 7.65 along with some of my tested loads that mimic manual loads.

BTW; regarding H380 being “very temperature sensitive” I don’t know who “us old timers” are but I’ve never heard it was anymore temperature sensitive than any other spherical (ball) powder and I’m an “old timer” at this game also.

Perhaps you could provide the pressure test(s) data that demonstrates H380s pressure sensitivity?

To continue; let’s discuss the 7.65x53 Belgian/Argentine cartridge pressure standards. It is a European developed cartridge with standards for pressure set by C.I.P. (the European counterpart to SAAMI). As measured by transducer the Pmax is 56,565 psi, the PK is 65,049psi and the Pe is 70,700 psi. The Pmax, PK and Pe correspond to SAAMIs MAP, MPLM and MPSM. If you’re not familiar with what those mean then perhaps you should read the information available at SAAMIs site. All pressure measurements were taken using “Evita”, a M91 Argentine Mauser, with a 24” barrel. The strain gauge is fixed over the chamber at the SAAMI specified location. The data is correlated via an Oehler M43 PBL. The ambient temperature during testing was 70 – 84 degrees.

Hornady Custom Factory 7.65 ammunition tested was loaded with 46.5 gr of a ball powder under the .312 Hornady 150 gr SP. The velocity was 2809 at 56,300 psi just under the C.I.P. Pmax of 56,565 psi. Note the velocity discrepancy between Hornady factory ammunition and the load data in their 8th edition manual. The manual only lists velocities into the 2700 fps range out of a 29” barrel. The factory ammunition gives 2809 fps out of a 24” barrel. Understanding it take pressure to get velocity obviously the Hornady manual loads do not produce the same level of pressure as does the Hornady factory ammunition. Does that mean Hornady's Custom ammunition is "hot roddin"?

A test of 2 different lots of 7.65x53 Belgian ammunition (loaded by FN) having 154 and 160 gr FMJBT bullets gave 2606 fps at 53,200 psi and 2574 fps at 56,000 psi.

A test of 3 different lots of Argentine made 7.65 with 185 gr FMJBT bullets gave 2448 to 2473 fps at 54,200 to 54,700 psi.

The old Norma factory 150 gr SP 7.65 load gave 2943 fps at 66,900 psi.

The Hornady manual lists 43.2 gr H4895 as a max load with the 150 gr SP with no pressures listed Testing 43.5 gr H4895 under the same bullet gave 2790 fps at 57,800 psi. Apparently the max loads in Hornady’s manual are “hot roddin” the cartridge?

In The Lyman #50 manual the max load for a Sierra 125 gr SPT is 46 gr at 3001 fps. Loading that same that load and testing in Evita it runs 3029 fps at 54,300 psi...... That manual also shows 44.5 gr Varget at 2707 fps as a max load with the 150 Speer .311 bullet. Duplicating that load I got, out of Evita, 2703 fps at 53,900 psi. With the Sierra 180 SP .311 bullets over a max load of 43.5 gr Varget the 50th manual shows 2554 fps. In Evita 43 gr Varget under the Sierra 180 gr bullet ran 2467 fps at 54,000 and 44 gr Varget ran 2515 fps at 57,500 fps.

Thus we see from all the above, excluding the old Norma factory load, that the factory, milsurp and manuals are loading the 7.65x53 Belgian/Argentine cartridge to a psi level from 53,000 to pretty close to the C.I.P. Pmax of 56,565 psi.

Now with H380 under the 150 gr Hornady SP .312 bullet I started at 48.5 gr which ran 2611 fps at 48,000 psi. I worked up to 53 gr in ½ gr increments. The 52.3 gr load ran 2797 fps at 54,000 psi.

A few questions for you swheeler;

Since the actual measured psi of the H380is smack dab in the middle of all the other loads, factory, milsurp and manual how how do you deem that is “hot roddin” the cartridge?

How do you know if the Hornady max load listed is maximum for pressure when they do not state what the pressure was?

Have you measured the pressure of any H380 loads?....in any cartridge?

How do you, without “hot roddin”, with a 150 gr 30 caliber bullet get 600 fps faster than 2700 fps (Hornady and Lyman’s max velocity for the 7.65) out of an ’06 or get “1000 fps faster” than 2700 fps a 300 Win Mag with a 150 gr bullet? Thought you out grew “ hot roddin”........ or is that just a key board commando attempt at humor?


Bottom line here is, with all kidding aside, I measured the pressures of the 7.65 Argentine loads I shoot as I worked up to them. I do not use nor recommend any load that exceeds the C.I.P. Pmax for the 7.65 Argentine cartridge. It is common knowledge that many “max loads” listed in reloading manuals are, in fact, under pressure for many of the firearms they are chambered in. The 45-70, 32 S&WL, 45 Colt, the 7x57, the 7.65 and the 8x57 are some that come to mind. Even the 30-06 does not have to be held to, and most often isn’t, the old 47,000 psi “it was developed for”........ The facts from actually measuring the pressure are presented and speak for themselves. The load I posted does not "hot rod" the cartridge any more than does factory, milsurp or manual loads but is, in fact, simply equivalent to those loads.

Thus we see from the actual presented pressure measurements of factory, milsurp and manual listed loads, for the 7.65 Argentine load I suggested to arunaitoo, that load is well within the safety parameters of the cartridge in M91 and M1909 Argentine actions. As I’m sure he would, if he chooses to try that load, he would start low and work up. I suggest you do the same for use in those hot Montana 100+ degrees which much be hotter than the 110 - 128 degrees we can get down here in Arizona.......

[swheeler]

Just trying to make sure everyone stays safe especially when someone is showing data that far exceeds the maximum published by any manual for that powder! You never know what may show up on the internet, people posting Imr 4350 data when actually using IMR 4895, someone loading up a hundred rounds of ammo using book published max, shooting them all and discovering 100 loose primer pockets! Be safe

"Perhaps you could provide the pressure test(s) data that demonstrates H380s pressure sensitivity?" pressure sensitivity?????????? what are you talking about?. carry on

[abunaitoo]

The 312-155gr with 25.0gr of I4198 sounds like a good place to start.
Looking for something medium load.
4" to 5" at 100.
He's not really a shooter. Just starting out.
Got the rifle a long time ago, and just found some surplus ammo(from my friend) to start shooting it.
Kind of an interesting guy.
Was a deep sea construction diver.
Been all over the world working.
Seems like he retired now.
Wife from Japan.
Said his father was a paratrooper during D-Day.
It came up because he saw someone shooting a M1a3.
Said his father carried one.
Funny story how we met.
Was shooting and saw a guy who I've never seen before.
He looked kind of lost.
Asks if he needed help.
First time, so he didn't know what to do.
Got him a bench, took him over to read the range rules and sign in.
Went back and asked if he had a target stand .
Nope.
Went and borrowed a stand.
Asked if he brought any targets.
Nope.
Stapled some of my targets on the stand for him.
Waiting for the cease fire, noticed he didn't have any hearing protection.
Also noticed his wife with her hands covering her ears.
Went to borrow two ear muffs.
He was all set. Shot some rounds.
Said the rifle was shooting really high.
Explained to him why.
He finished shooting.
I returned all the stuff.
Before he left, he said, "I'll be better prepared next time"
We laughed about it.
Made another range friend.

[swheeler]

The 312-155gr with 25.0gr of I4198 sounds like a good place to start.
Looking for something medium load.
4" to 5" at 100.
He's not really a shooter. Just starting out.
Got the rifle a long time ago, and just found some surplus ammo(from my friend) to start shooting it.
Kind of an interesting guy.
Was a deep sea construction diver.
Been all over the world working.
Seems like he retired now.
Wife from Japan.
Said his father was a paratrooper during D-Day.
It came up because he saw someone shooting a M1a3.
Said his father carried one.
Funny story how we met.
Was shooting and saw a guy who I've never seen before.
He looked kind of lost.
Asks if he needed help.
First time, so he didn't know what to do.
Got him a bench, took him over to read the range rules and sign in.
Went back and asked if he had a target stand .
Nope.
Went and borrowed a stand.
Asked if he brought any targets.
Nope.
Stapled some of my targets on the stand for him.
Waiting for the cease fire, noticed he didn't have any hearing protection.
Also noticed his wife with her hands covering her ears.
Went to borrow two ear muffs.
He was all set. Shot some rounds.
Said the rifle was shooting really high.
Explained to him why.
He finished shooting.
I returned all the stuff.
Before he left, he said, "I'll be better prepared next time"
We laughed about it.
Made another range friend.

I would start a little lower than the 25 gr IMR4198, that is probably 2000 fps from 91. Twenty grains should be close to 1600, work up a grain at a time until groups open up, and I would use a grain of dacron fluffed up to fill the space between bullet base and powder in all reduced loads with 4198.

[abunaitoo]

I pulled some head from some 7.65x39 duds. 123gr
Loaded them into reformed Win brass with 22.0 if I4198 with a tuff of dacron.
Bullets were probably .308. So probably to small.
It shot not to bad. 2" to 3" at 50, 5" to 6" at 100.
Shot out of my 91 carbine
I'll see if I can find some .311 bullets.

[swheeler]

That 312-155 Lee you mention above will cast large enough to size .313", mine does and it will shoot better than any 308 bullet in it. If you ever buy a mold for it the 312-185 gr Lee is my favorite cast in the 7.65 and 314-299 is a close second. If you want jacketed that .312 150 gr Hornady mentioned is the way to go with start load of 4895 will be mild and accurate. A couple boxes of those Hornady bullets and a pound of H4895 sounds like a lot of fun!

[abunaitoo]

I had hoped the 7.62x39 would have worked.
I remember them being .311 before.
They seems to be .308 to .309.
I remember asking a friend, who was shooting a SKS, what size bullets he was shooting.
He was shooting cheap steel cased ammo, and couldn't hit anything at 100yds.

[swheeler]

Yes too small to shoot really well. Maybe you can find a local store that has the Hornady .312 bullets. Do you have the Lee 155 gr mold and a sizer that if too small can be lapped out, that might be a lot of fun.

[Larry Gibson]

I shoot quite a few pull down SKS/AK 123 gr +/- bullets in my .31s including the 7.65 Argentine. They mic .310 + diameter and shoot ok as they are not make for the best accuracy [exception being some Israeli IMI bullets]. Hornady, Speer and Sierra 123/125 gr .310/.311 shoot excellently. Also Speer and Sierra .311 and Hornady .312 bullets of 3.11 - .312 diameter shoot excellently.

[swheeler]

I had hoped the 7.62x39 would have worked.
I remember them being .311 before.
They seems to be .308 to .309.
I remember asking a friend, who was shooting a SKS, what size bullets he was shooting.
He was shooting cheap steel cased ammo, and couldn't hit anything at 100yds.

Yes at that size they aren't going to be any good in your 7.65 Argentine!

[abunaitoo]

I slugged one of my carbines.
I really need to start doing that first.
.313 bore.
Don't have any 155-160gr to size that big.
Biggest I have is .311.
I do have a group buy .316-191gr mold.
I lubed and sized those.
Will try in the carbine tomorrow.
Make up a box for friend to try, if I see him.

[abunaitoo]

Didn't see him at the range yesterday.
I had loaded 10 each with unique and I4198.
I did find a box of reloads with cast I had made a while ago.
I reloader another box with the same boolets, only PC'ed to try.
It shot great. 16.0 2400 with a dacron filler.
I find the filler always helps it shoot better.
I'll pull the onesIi made for him and reload with the 2400 load.