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Thread: Springfield headspace

  1. #1
    Boolit Master
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    Springfield headspace

    Personally I have no use for Springfields of any vintage, but that is just my feelings, neither right nor wrong.

    The situation is I have an acquaintance who wants to "restore" an "03" (not 03A3) Springfield. It is a high number so I don't believe that is an issue.

    The headspace, however, is another story. It takes the NO-GO gauge with absolutely no feel and it just starts to close on the FIELD gauge.

    When I explained this to him he did a search on the internet regarding this situation and claims that most places consider it to be a non-issue. As I understand it, the FIELD gauge was a battle field expedient measure to keep rifles in combat longer between major repairs, but not an ideal solution for the most part. It's out there on the internet so it must be true, right?

    I am doing my best to discourage this "restoration" but so far he is very adamant in carrying out this project.

    Am I just being paranoid or is this a legitimate concern?

    So my question to you folks here, what would you do?
    When it's time to fight, you fight like you are the third monkey on the ramp to Noah's Ark.... and brother, it's STARTING TO RAIN!!

  2. #2
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    I assume the extractor & striker assembly was removed before testing ?
    If they were and a Field goes in, you may have excessive headspace.
    With the bolt closed, can you move the bolt forward and back ?
    If so you may be able to find another bolt that will seat tighter on the locking lug recesses in the action and reduce the headspace.
    NOW, that said, IF the rifle will only be used with low pressure loads, you could fireform some cases using the false shoulder method and ONLY use them in that rifle. NEVER shoot factory ammo in it as you could have a case head separation.
    Remember the 03' (like the M54/70) has a coned breech that does not support the case head.
    The "professional" way to correct this is to set the barrel back and recut the chamber (expensive).
    Knowing more about the rifle will help make a decision. I.E. of it is a 100% original mil-spec rifle, it is best left alone, if a good sporter, it is worth fixing.

    Here's some info on gauges:

    Forster offers three lengths of headspace gages for most rifle calibers, in order from shortest to longest:

    GO: Corresponds to the minimum chamber dimensions. If a rifle closes on a GO gage, the chamber will accept ammunition that is made to SAAMI maximum specifications. The GO gage is essential for checking a newly-reamed chamber in order to ensure a tight, accurate, and safe chamber that will accept SAAMI maximum ammo.
    NO-GO: Corresponds to the maximum headspace we recommend for gunsmiths’ chambering new bolt-action rifles. This is not a SAAMI-maximum measurement. If a rifle closes on a NO-GO gage, it may still be within SAAMI specifications, or it may have excessive headspace. To determine if there is excessive headspace, the chamber should then be checked with a FIELD gage. The NO-GO gage is a valuable tool for gunsmiths’ reaming new chambers, in order to ensure tight and accurate headspace.
    FIELD: Corresponds to the longest safe headspace. If a rifle closes on a FIELD gage, its chamber is dangerously close to, or longer than, SAAMI-specified maximum chamber size. If chamber headspace is excessive, the gun should be taken out of service until it has been inspected and repaired by a competent gunsmith. FIELD gages are slightly shorter than the SAAMI maximum in order to give a small safety margin.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master
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    If it were my rifle, I would try a new bolt body in it,might tighten it up a few thousands. If he is a cast bullet shooter he could load long to take up any excessive headspace, and then keep track of that brass. I just finished a couple drill rifles,and new bolts bodies from Sarco or GPC were less than $20. Those were O3A3 , 1903 would be harder to find.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Given Forster's definition of a field gauge, looks like it's within the longest safe headspace, especially if it only starts to close on the field gauge but won't close on it. Removing the extractor and firing pin assembly is essential for a true measurement, and removing the firing pin spring allows good feel. Also remember to apply no degree of force in closing the bolt-finger tips are used here, not an entire hand. Excessive force will not only give an erroneous headspace reading but could damage the gauge. If the action, bolt, and barrel originally went together, especially if the bore is in good condition, I would tend to keep everything together. A bolt swap is also a good idea if you know anyone who has spare '03 bolts on hand. Swapping barrels, rechambering, etc. is going to get real expensive real fast.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    OK then. It would seem the consensus is that it is fine.

    I'll keep my yap shut and let him continue with the project in peace. However, he is on his own. I wouldn't accept it for myself so I for darn sure won't be involved in someone else's project I would not accept for myself.
    When it's time to fight, you fight like you are the third monkey on the ramp to Noah's Ark.... and brother, it's STARTING TO RAIN!!

  6. #6
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    With proper loading techniques long headspace is not an issue if you create a false shoulder or jam the bullets into rifling than don't bump the shoulder back more than .002" when you size the case. Without doing this the brass is a once or twice fire before head separation becomes an issue.

    The real question is why is the headspace long? If its from normal wear (not likely but possible) or tolerancing issues it's not a problem. If its due to overpressure loads that set the bolts lugs back it could be an issue.

    To check you need to pull the barrel or use a borescope. It might be possible to reach into the receive with a hook scribe to feel if there is a step in the lug area indicating wear or setback from pressure.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
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  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    Well, no he isn't "fine". He's close to a dangerous situation. Not quite, but close. What if he or somebody else fires an overly hot load made with dodgy old brass, and the case head separates? Springfield bolts are still cheap enough to do some mixing and matching until a safe combo is found.

    As for the '03 having a coned breech, yes it does. But the case head is totally supported right up to the extractor groove. Drop a factory round into a barrel and it'll be readily apparent.

    The venerable '03, as well as the old M70, had less than stellar gas handling capabilities despite their wonderful strength. There's where they come into second place behind the M98 Mauser, when comparing guns of that era. To that end a wise man minds his headspace in a Springfield and doesn't mess with questionable brass.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master slughammer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by roysha View Post
    ....
    Am I just being paranoid or is this a legitimate concern?

    So my question to you folks here, what would you do?
    I think you're being paranoid.
    Go and Field are your Saami min and max. For 30-06, that difference is .010. A No-Go is for setting up a new rifle, cutting that distance in about half.
    If it doesn't close on the Field gage, then it is below Saami max.

    What would I do? I'd buy a cartridge headspace gage and a set of Redding competition shell holders (+.002, .004, .006, .008, .010). I'd use the +.010 until the brass gets hard to chamber and then change to the +.008 etc to size my brass to my headspace. I'd then polish the neck of my size die to stop overworking the necks and shoot that brass until the primer pockets get loose. Then start over again with another batch of brass.
    Happiness is a couple of 38's and a bucket of ammo.

  9. #9
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    It is a Field Reject gauge and when the bolt will close on it time for setback and re-chamber. Now us that are old hands at reloading know you can take fire formed brass from this chamber and reload it without bumping the shoulder back, I would want to form my brass using a false shoulder to set up for slight crush fit, then neck size from there on.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gnoahhh View Post
    What if he or somebody else fires an overly hot load made with dodgy old brass, and the case head separates?
    Basically nothing unless the front portion stays in the chamber and he tries to chamber the next round than the jam MAY be more difficult to remove.

    Pierced primers or case head failure release a lot of gas into the action and they can be very serious.

    Case head separation is in reality are a none event as far as gas leakage is concerned since a seal occurs above and below the separation. The amount of gas released into the action is undetectable if any at all.

    In 1975 my second Contender barrels was a 357 Herrett. That was the first year the 357 Herrett was a factory chambering. There was a learning curve for everyone and case head separations was part of the learning curve. Everyone of my first 100 brass had a partial or complete head separation between 3 and 5 firings. Same for most of the gun rag writers. Zero gass issues. I don't believe I personally have had a separation since.

    In the late 80's when I started shooting NRA Power I was a member of the National Guard rifle team and I was issued a pretty good M-14. My two civilian shooting buddies used issue state DCM M-14's that a field gage would good into. They also used tired hand me down FREE brass. With this brass they had up to 50% full head separation. They had surprisingly few alibies due to the front portion of the case staying in the chamber. I have no idea how many separations they had but they put 2 plus 5 gallon buckets of hand me down junk brass thru those rifles. I loved scoring for them because it never ceased to amaze me how consistence the three piles of brass were. One for complete cases, one for the front half and one for the heads. Again zero gas issues.

    About 15 years ago I was asked to set back a barrel on custom 98 Mauser in 257 Roberts Ackley improved that started life as a straight 257 Roberts. A coworker had inherited it from is father-in-law. When the chamber was improved the barrel was not set back and it was cut deep. He shot a couple of boxes of ammo that came with the rifle before he brought it to me. Almost all the case full separated and again with zero gas issues. When I looked at the rifle it had the deepest, richest looking bluing I have ever seen on a firearm. After I explained that bluing damage was very likely from pulling the barrel I recommend the proper loading technique that would eliminate his brass issues. He opted to go that route and has never had a separation since.

    Last one I chambered a .223 Krieger barreled AR for my prairie dog shooting buddy. Headspace was 1/2 thousands over min. He is in his 70's and has been reloading since the 50's so I thought he knew how to properly sent up a sizing die. That was a mistake on my part. I had given him 2 full 30 cal. ammo cans of 223 brass. I did tell him to use .002 shoulder clearance. He never checked. He just ran the die in until he could feel the cam over in the press. Doing that he had .010" shoulder clearance with that die. He did not separate cases per firing so he had multiple fired cases mixed in with once fired. It didn't take to long and he was having case head separations. I gave him an RCBS case mic and showed him how to properly set the die up. That did resolve the issue but total he had over a hundred full separations again with zero gas issues.

    I did see the aftermath of one 30-06 that that had a head failure of unknown case. About a 1/4 of the head from the primer hole cracked out. Had the shooter not be wearing shooting glasses he may have lost his right I. The was on a Remington 700. I have also witnessed a couple of pierced primers. The shooters were very aware of the gas blowback.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-04-2019 at 10:46 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
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    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
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  11. #11
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    I have pierced a couple primers and got enough blow back through the bolt to know I didn't want anymore, that little puff right on the eye is enough to make you wear shooting glasses, at least for the next few trips to the range. I have five rifles chambered in 8x57 right now, 4 close on No Go but not a one closes on my field gauge, I have brass that has ten loadings on them with full doses of 4895 and 4064, never had a case head separation in them but have lost a good percentage from loose primer pockets. I would think if you keep separating brass in a chamber eventually you will damage the chamber, now a gas gun like you speak of may not I don't know.
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  12. #12
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    Gas cutting does damage anytime you have signification gas flow. Example is the bolt face from primer leakage or the firing pin tip with a pierced primer.

    I own a borescope. I did look at the AR chamber and zero evidence of any gas cutting. In the late 80's or early 90's I did look at my buddies M-14's with just the naked eye. Didn't see any damage. Same for the Herrett. Also never seen, read or heard of gas cutting in a chamber from separated cases.
    Last edited by M-Tecs; 05-04-2019 at 11:26 PM.
    2nd Amendment of the U.S. Constitution. - "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

    "Before you argue with someone, ask yourself, is that person even mentally mature enough to grasp the concept of different perspectives? Because if not, there’s absolutely no point."
    – Amber Veal

    "The Highest form of ignorance is when your reject something you don't know anything about".
    - Wayne Dyer

  13. #13
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    I have separated a couple casings over the years and never could find any damage to the chamber either, but I only ever looked with the naked eye. The separations were with belted magnum casings and caused by screwing the die down far as possible to get rid of the bulge right in front of the belt which in turn set the shoulder back too far. I can't remember any gas leakage seen at time of separation, like smoke whisping out of the action that I remember. I know the 6.5 Rem Mag was a real pain to get the forward part of the casing out of the chamber using a sharp dental pick inside the casing.
    Charter Member #148

  14. #14
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    If he is a handloader, it isn't a problem. Fire form the cases, and neck size only when reloading.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by waksupi View Post
    If he is a handloader, it isn't a problem. Fire form the cases, and neck size only when reloading.
    Indeed, I have maintained for a long time that handloaders don't, or at least shouldn't, have headspace problems. Correct dies adjustment solves most of those issues.

    However, in this case, he is not a reloader and even if he was, he won't live forever and what about the next person that owns the rifle. Just because many of us are cautious, especially in regard to military rifles, many people assume since the rifle looks good it is OK. Maybe yes, maybe no. That is the main reason I'm staying away from any future involvement.
    When it's time to fight, you fight like you are the third monkey on the ramp to Noah's Ark.... and brother, it's STARTING TO RAIN!!

  16. #16
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    I have a bubba'd A3 that I rescued many years ago. NOS A3 bbl and requested if he could at all possible chamber the rifle so that both the issue bolt and a sniper bolt would be in the same range of headspace. Both bolts fit the receiver but the sniper bolt won't close the same as the 03 bolt on a no go guage. Could be less wear on the lugs on the sniper bolt. And who knows how many rounds went through the old barrel with the bolt now in use. Accuracy is the same with either bolt installed. He's one of those smiths that work on single shots as well as bolt guns and semi autos. Retired a few years so here's hoping he's enjoying his retirement. Frank

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    Quote Originally Posted by roysha View Post
    Indeed, I have maintained for a long time that handloaders don't, or at least shouldn't, have headspace problems. Correct dies adjustment solves most of those issues.

    However, in this case, he is not a reloader and even if he was, he won't live forever and what about the next person that owns the rifle. Just because many of us are cautious, especially in regard to military rifles, many people assume since the rifle looks good it is OK. Maybe yes, maybe no. That is the main reason I'm staying away from any future involvement.
    In that case, it may be cheaper to rechamber to .30-06 Ackley Improved, and stamp the barrel as such..
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
    John Taylor - "African Rifles and Cartridges"

    Forget everything you know about loading jacketed bullets. This is a whole new ball game!


  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by waksupi View Post
    In that case, it may be cheaper to rechamber to .30-06 Ackley Improved, and stamp the barrel as such..
    wouldnt be any cheaper. in order to properly chamber something for AI, the barrel has to be set back. now many hacks run a reamer in and call it AI, but it isnt.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by lefty o View Post
    wouldnt be any cheaper. in order to properly chamber something for AI, the barrel has to be set back. now many hacks run a reamer in and call it AI, but it isnt.

    Out of curiosity, what did PO Ackley recommend doing? I never heard of setting back 30-30's for the improvement job, but I enjoy learning.
    Look twice, shoot once.

  20. #20
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by nekshot View Post
    Out of curiosity, what did PO Ackley recommend doing? I never heard of setting back 30-30's for the improvement job, but I enjoy learning.
    rimmed cartridges are set up so they do not need to be set back, all rebated rim need to be set back. anyone can look at drawings of the rimless cartridges and compare them, just running in an AI reamer doesnt clean up the shoulder of the original chamber.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check