Leica binoculars

[Bazoo]

Thats an interesting testamonial Larry, thanks for sharing.

[Petrol & Powder]

In reference to the comments made by Larry and Randy:

I agree with their statements and wish to add a little. The technology that goes into optics is mature and well developed but even with mass production it doesn't get much cheaper. It just isn't one of those fields where economies of scale create huge reductions in price. High quality optics cost a lot and that's all there is to it.
Yeah, if your needs aren't great then there's little benefit to spending large sums of money. I get it.
BUT, I've yet to see really cheap optics even come close to the quality of the higher end products. The only way to drive the price point of optics down is to cut quality.

Everything concerning optics is a compromise. In order to achieve some trait, you must give up something else.

The thing you must surrender or accept might be: more weight, less light transmission, smaller field of view, less eye relief, more distortion, less accurate color, or MORE COST. When it comes to optics there is NO FREE LUNCH ! You're going to pay somewhere (weight, light transmission, field of view, COST, etc. ) for the qualities you desire.

Here are a few things that you just cannot get around:
An increase in magnification yields a decrease in the field of view.
Some light is lost at every air to glass surface the light passes through. Anti-reflective coatings can reduce that loss but they never eliminate it completely.
The quality of the glass itself affects the way the light passes through it. Some light will always be lost and some distortion will always exist.
The precision that the lens is held to when the lens is ground affects the way the lens works.
The alignment of the lens' affects the overall performance of the device.
A porro prism binocular is generally easier and less expensive to produce compared to a roof prism design but the roof prism design is generally more compact with all else being equal.


The compromises in optical design are never ending. You have to trade something to get something.

We all make decisions and if I had unlimited funds I would buy the very best optics available. I don't have unlimited funds so I buy the best optics I can afford (which are not the best available but they are what I'm willing to pay for).

My ancient Zeiss Dialyt binoculars are easily 35+ years old and probably not even up to the standards of a new pair of lower end Nikons BUT I'd put them up against any super cheap current binoculars on the market.

My Hensoldt 8 x 30 former West German binos are even older but I'd never part with them.

I've used some of the new Minox roof prism binoculars and they are great but I can't afford them.

When it comes to optics, YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR.

[lefty o]

You can claim it if you want but if you cannot actually prove it by comparative testing you are only voicing an opinion. My comments were based on real testing of multiple sets of binoculars on the same day at the same time and place.

you think no one other than you has done a side by side comparison of optics? i own from inexpensive to danged expensive optics, and guess what they get used side by side, and if you think there isnt a difference, you need to get your eye's checked.

[Love Life]

you think no one other than you has done a side by side comparison of optics? i own from inexpensive to danged expensive optics, and guess what they get used side by side, and if you think there isnt a difference, you need to get your eye's checked.

Same here, lol, but I didn’t feel like typing it out.

[rcslotcar]

Good optics preform good. Great optics preform great!

[M-Tecs]

The facts are the high end glasses are more wow factor than real.
Put them on an optical bench and test them.

I have to disagree also. While not an optical test lab I have tested a bunch. I own a pair of Swarovski 8x56 Bino's https://www.swarovskioptik.com/birdi...-8x56-p5068617 that I use as a baseline. For optical clarity and brightness some much less costly options come fairly close. When it comes to depth of field and eye strain I have not found any lesser expensive options that are remotely close to my Swaro's and I have searched for years.

For a cost effective option I purchased a pair of these https://www.opticsreviewer.com/zen-r...inoculars.html

For the money they are very good and are my daily knockaround glass.

The Swaro's are mostly used for spotting for shooting prairie dogs. The Swaro's depth of field and lack eye strain are well worth the very high cost to me. Most won't and don't agree until they have spent a couple of days from sunrise to sunset looking thru a pair of bino's and/or scopes. Non-believes become converts. With the Swaro's no eye strain or headaches. Not so much with lesser glass.

[W.R.Buchanan]

M-tecs the key to reducing eyestrain is getting both sides of the bino focused to your eyes. Usually you focus using the wheel for your left eye and then use the eyepiece of the right side to bring you right eye into focus. If you get it right and usually it takes some time playing with it, your eyes should work together and eyestrain should be a thing of the past.

This si why I like the fixed focus Binos like the Zeiss and Steiner's. My 8x30 Steiner's have been adjusted once and they still are in focus every time I pick them up. The Zeiss Dialyts are more of the same but with larger Objectives they are just so much brighter.

I have access to two sets of those Zeiss Binos when I shoot silhouette. One guy paid $500 and the other got a screamin' deal at $400 I sit on the tailgate of my truck and glass the hillside behind our range and the stuff you can see is amazing and well beyond the definition of any other Binos I've tried including my Steiner's and my newer Vortex Diamondbacks. They are even close to the Zeiss which are 20-30 years old!

I've got a pair of Tasco 12x25's in my gun tool bag, and they are not half bad and I got them from Walmart for $19.95 and for looking at shots on targets out to 100 yards or the deer near Lake Casitas they are more than adequate.

Guys it all comes down to your intended use of the things. If you can see what you want with $20 binos, fine. If you have a need and can amortize the cost like if you are a Guide in Colorado or Montana, then spending more is a Business Expense and can be written off. IE they pay for themselves and you get to enjoy the quality at a overall lower cost..

There is one other little factor we haven't talked about and that is actually using them properly. Figuring out a steady hold like off a bipod or some steady rest, having the lens cups against the tops of your eye sockets, and getting both sides working together both in focus and in complete field of view is senior to the cost of the optics. IE; if you don't know how to use them, higher end optics will not benefit you as much as learning how to use lower end optics correctly. There are things to learn here, and maybe a trip to google to find instructions on technique would be a worth while use of time, which could save you a bunch of money.

Also if you wear glasses like many of us do,,, Take them off and focus the Binos to your eyes without them. it is much easier than trying to get your glasses lined up with the binos and get a complete field of view and focus too !.

Randy

[M-Tecs]

M-tecs the key to reducing eyestrain is getting both sides of the bino focused to your eyes. Usually you focus using the wheel for your left eye and then use the eyepiece of the right side to bring you right eye into focus. If you get it right and usually it takes some time playing with it, your eyes should work together and eyestrain should be a thing of the past.

Spend 12 or 14 hours a day for a couple of days with properly adjusted bino's of various manufactures and I am 100% certain you will leave with a different opinion. I didn't want to spend the money and like you I was not a believer until I used a buddies Swaro's. Same experience for the numerous folks that have used mine or my buddies when spotting for us.

Alignment is part of the issue but not all. http://www.birdwatching.com/optics/e...alignment.html

I find eye strain to be an issue with some spotting scopes also were alignment is not a factor. The100mm Unertl Team Scope was the best I have ever used next is the Kowa TSN-883 Angled Spotting Scope.

You did point out the eye relief issue that I had overlooked. Swaro's have a long eye relief and quick adj. eyecups so removing your glasses is not an issue. Removing your glasses to look thru you bino's a couple of times is not big deal. Doing it a couple of hundred times a day like you do when shooting and spotting prairie dogs it becomes an issue.

I haven't found any fixed focus bino's that meet my standards. At best they are just a compromise focus.

https://www.bestbinocularsreviews.co...binoculars.php

Optics Planet sums it up well here. https://www.opticsplanet.com/focus-free-binoculars.html

"Focus free binoculars are the best choice for beginners or children, or for users that will not be viewing objects that are very close or very far. Fixed focus binoculars have the best performance at medium ranges. Though sometimes referred to as auto focus binoculars or self focusing binoculars, these binoculars actually require no focusing at all; they are designed with the focus at a fixed distance."

The benefits of whether or not high end optics are worth the cost is dependent on need.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Years ago I worked with a fellow who was an optics freak. He had many very expensive German binoculars. I asked him to bring in a pair on a Saturday when we would be the only men working. He brought in a Zeizz binocular and I brought some Jap cheapies. We stood out back of the phone building reading the writing on the box cars about a quarter mile away. I would look thru mine and he looked thru his, then we changed and I looked thru the Zeizz. After a while I said, "Ray, I don't see much difference". Ray said "yeah, especially when you consider the price difference". I paid $23 for mine and he paid over $500 for the Zeizz. Of course I admit that was not a real test but I do think much of the hype over hi dollar glass is just that, hype. All the work is done on computer controlled machines no matter who makes them. That ought to stir the pot.

[Love Life]

$500 isn’t even near the high end when it comes to optics.

[M-Tecs]

A good breakdown on what the extra money gets you. Per their criteria $500 is considered mid-grade.

https://baltimorebirdclub.org/choosing_optics2015.pdf

- Economy ($11 - $250) - 2 + 1 With 2-element objective lens and simple 1-element eyepiece lenses. I split this group into two sub-groups by the types of prisms used. In this group, porro prism models are less durable but are optically superior. Roof prism models are more compact and durable, but are optically inferior.

- Mid-grade ($80 - $500 and up to $700) - 2 + 2 With 2-element lenses throughout, objective and eyepiece lenses. I split this group with a small sub-group featuring “ED” glass in the lenses.

- Premium grade ($900 and up) - 3 + 2-plus With 3-element objective lens and 2-element specially shaped “aspheric” or “field flattener” eyepiece lenses. I split this group, separating out an “Elite” group ($1,700 - $2,700) using expensive fluoride formula glass in the lenses, for the very best optics money can buy.

Other factors can also affect image quality, such as lens coatings, mirror coatings (roof prism models), lens glass formula, and prism glass formula. All of these matter, but lens types make the most substantial difference.


This explains the differences in eye strain.

GROUP FOUR - PREMIUM BINOCULARS, $900 - $2,000

Binoculars in this class gain most of their superiority from a three-element Apochromatic objective lens, which can focus three colors to the same exact point, and eye piece (ocular) lenses with "aspheric" geometric correction for varying thickness in parts of the lens (see "Aspheric" earlier in this article, also refered to as "field flattener lenses"). This combination of Apochromatic and "Aspheric" corrections yields a significantly clearer image with less eye strain. Most of these will also have the di-electric iridescent mirror coatings and first-rate anti-reflective lens coatings. Once you've used any one of these models for while, you won't want to settle for anything less, if you can afford it.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

$500 isn’t even near the high end when it comes to optics.

I failed to mention Lover Boy that the story I related took place in the 1970s. The dollar was worth more at that time.

[W.R.Buchanan]

M-Tecs. Not saying that high end stuff doesn't have it's place. I have never, nor will I ever, sit for 12-14 hours looking thru binos, or doing anything else for that matter. The only thing I've ever done for that long is work, and I don't do that much anymore.

Just saying the vast, and I mean 98% of users, never would be able to get their monies worth out of a set of $2000 binos. I know what I'm looking at, and I wouldn't get my Monies Worth from those optics. They are nice for sure, just not practical for most.

The fixed focus Zeiss 10x40 Dialyts are the best I've seen and hardly beginners optics. I would buy a good set in 1 second if they came across my path locally for a reasonable price IE<$500. My 8x30 Steiner's are fixed focus and they have been unchanged for 20+ years.

I had a Zeiss 8x20 Monocular that I paid nearly $400 for back in 1978. I really wanted it and there wasn't any way to shop around.
I rigged up a mount for that glass using a light clamp for a bicycle. I used that optic alot!!! I actually got my monies worth out of it using it for everything from looking at the moon to spotting squirrels, to use as a spotting scope for my indoor pellet gun range and the nude beach next to the El Segundo Power Plant when I was running the crane..(before marriage.) It got stolen out of my car along with a fanny pack, and It hurt me deeply. You could see every hole in the moon with that optic! It was great and the size of a lipstick so I had it with me frequently. I had it for 20 years!

It got replaced by a set of Bushnell 8x20 Binos I bought used from a guy for $30. They live in my Car Bug Out Bag.

One other thing people can and should do, and we see alot of whining about old eyes here,,, is get your eyes checked once in a while. I am getting mine checked this Sunday at 11:00 AM at Costco! $50 and then I'll go to a local Eye Glass Factory and get new lenses made for another $75.

I don't expect much change in the prescription as my current glasses work fine, but I want new lenses as my current ones are scratched and getting a checkup is worth while.

Randy

[Love Life]

I failed to mention Lover Boy that the story I related took place in the 1970s. The dollar was worth more at that time.

Lover boy? First time I’ve heard that one, lol.

Your story makes more sense now that you’ve added the timeframe of the test. $500 in 1970 would put the Zeiss at the tippy top.

[GOPHER SLAYER]

Come on now Love Life, fess up. You probably had a long string of sweetie pies trying to grab you. I know I did. I could have added this to my story about Ray and his fascination with optics. Before the Zeiss binoculars he bought a Leica binocular. He bitched so much to the company where he bought them, they told him to send them back and they would refund his money, which they did. It was then he bought the Zeiss. I was in his home one day and I saw a Zeiss 8x40 binocular, at leas I thing they were 8x40, they may have been 8x50. I do remember they were pretty long. I asked him , "Ray what do you use these for"?. He said, " I just look around the neighborhood". I did't press that question any further. All I could think of was peeping tom. He was a strange man. I could tell some weird stories about the guy. I didn't hang around the guy very much. We were car pooling or I wouldn't have been in his home at all.

[JimB..]

I have never heard of high-quality focus-free binoculars. I imagine that they work fine once you get out a fair bit, but doesn’t physics preclude them from working well at 10m and at 1000m?

I’m sure that there is an optics formula that incorporates focal length, aperture and exit pupil diameter to give an effective depth of field at various ranges. Tiny aperture would do it, but then they’d be useless as binoculars.

How do they do it?

[MT Chambers]

I really like the idea of having your rangefinders as part of your binos, like the Leica, I'd like them just for that feature.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I have never heard of high-quality focus-free binoculars. I imagine that they work fine once you get out a fair bit, but doesn’t physics preclude them from working well at 10m and at 1000m?

How do they do it?

I don't know how they do it. They are Germans and have figured out a lot of stuff that eludes other races.

If you ever get to look thru a pair of older Zeiss Dialyt 10x42 Binos you will see the difference. They are spectacular!!!

Once the eyepieces are set to your eyes they are in focus from 0 meters out to Infinity. A good set will cost you $500-750 on Ebay. If they still made them they'd be $3000 new. Believe me they are THAT GOOD!

I have a pair of 8x30 Steiners and they are fixed focus as well. Not as spectacular as the Zeiss Binos but pretty good anyway. Mine are 30 years old and are just as bright and good to the edges as my new set of Vortex Diamondbacks I got last year.

Randy

[JimB..]

I don't know how they do it. They are Germans and have figured out a lot of stuff that eludes other races.

That made my day. Thanks
Jim

[Petander]

The differences start to show when there's less and less light.

I like to surprise people in "dark" when you can't see the trees anymore,just the wood. I give them my Steiner Ranger 8x56 and all of a sudden they see the rabbit there @ 200 meters. Bare eyes it's all black.

I started buying proper optics too late. For example my 300 m groups cut in half when I went proper Zeiss route ten years ago. But I drive a 20 year old Corolla...

How much is too much for better eyes?