Lee .690 and WAA12 Shotcups...some questions.

[EVR]

RE: loads for the .690 Lee RB and WAA12 wad with petals left on.

With ball seated in wad, I AM able to push this thru the chamber and forcing cone into the barrel. There is a bit of stiff resistance as the ball enters the forcing cone, then steady resistance the rest of the way.

I do understand that many have commented on removing the petals, and I've done that in the past.

Has anyone experienced pressure problems with these RB's when seated in the shotcup? In using the .690 ball in the WAA12 wad, is there a safety issue I'm missing here?

[longbow]

If you can push the ball/wad combo through the barrel by hand you are okay... assuming cylinder bore all the way - no choke.

Ajay's recommendation was 6 to 10 lbs. Of force for snug fit to bore.

RB's have such a small bearing surface if fit is too tight the petals should shear easily.

In the past I had no success with 0.690" rb's because I didnt have any wads with thin enough petals. Recovered wads all had sheared petals. Never any indication of excess pressure though.

Now I find that I have Winchester wads the fit is pretty good so I will try them.

I always put a nitro card in the bottom of the shotcup under the ball so the shotcup is supported. Without the card wad the shot up will swage around the ball leading to cushion leg and gas seal failure.

If you are worried, there's nothing wrong with cutting petals off to a hair below the equator of the ball. Just remember to include a nitro card wad under the ball for marking petal trim height.

Longbow

[savage308]

I load lots of .690 balls but I don't use your wad so I hope someone else can help you. I use a claybuster so clone with the petals cut midway of the .690 ball and no card under the ball . a cheddite hull and imp.cyl choke and they shoot great and the recovered wads usually look good enough to re-use.

[725]

In my CYLINDER BORE - FULLY RIFLED BARREL, I launch a .702 pure lead ball and get stunning accuracy. Each of the shotguns I use that in are heavy barreled guns. (H&R Ultra 12 ga. & a Hasting heavy barrel). YMMV. I know my shotgun and this is for mine only, because I can't see anybody else or know what condition those might be in. Use your own good judgement and caution approaching this load. Be guided by a good manual like I was:
Graf's CH-123 hull
32 gr. blue Dot
shot cup (Claybuster CB2118-12
1/4 " 20 ga. cork wad under the ball
.702 pure lead round ball
star fold crimp

I designed this to fit very snugly in my chamber, so as to center it all up. These don't fall in or out of the chamber. Although I went a grain or two higher during load development, it seemed excessive & unnecessary. The hotter loads tended to damage the shot cup. With the .702 ball, 32 grains of Blue Dot was perfect. Your .690 ball will weigh a little less so you have to figure it out on your own.

Good luck and be safe.

[EVR]

Thanks guys.

The issue I was mulling over was the initial resistance caused by entry of the ball/wad into the forcing cone and whether that might cause a dangerous pressure spike. I'm actually using a Claybuster clone of the WAA12. Thanks.

[bikerbeans]

I used up a 1,000 blue duster wads (a cheap waa12 clone, Iirc) loading 69 cal RBs from a Lee mold. Alloy was range scrap and sometimes hardball alloy. I used 23g unique, 209a primers, used win compression formed hulls and a couple 20ga 0,125" nc to raise the ball above the petals. All loads were crimped with a bpi crimper and delta drill press. Load chronied in the mid 1,300 fps range from a 24" rifled barrel. I fired these loads in at least 10 different shotguns and never had a sign of overpressure. Barrels were fully rifled, and smoothbores with chokes ranging from full to cylinder. That said, i have NOT had this load pressure tested.

Forgot to add the hulls were 2,75" and every shotgun they were fired from had a 3" chamber.

BB

[EVR]

From what I'm finding out, it is no good to shoot these with whole wads. I cannot find a single source recommending a load where the petals are left on {and surround the ball}. Checked and it took about 44 lbs pressure to push the ball into the barrel in one of mine and I'm thinking that might be too much.

[bikerbeans]

Typical shotgun loads generate 8k to 10k psi. I bet it takes more yhan 44 pounds to force open the crimp on a shot shell. IMO, the push through test is to guesstimate if the wad petals will survive the trip down the bore and through the choke.

BB

[longbow]

BPI list load data for one of their shotcups with petals on.

I will recommend not totally removing petals because a naked 0.690" RB rattling down a 12 ga. barrel will be very inaccurate unless you are shooting it through a full choke. Been there, done that... no accuracy!

If the petals worry you then trim them off so that the ball sits just touching the ends of the petals. Or buy some donut wads to keep the balls centered.

I based a lot of my load data off the Precision Rifle pressure tested load for their 610 gr. PileDriver slug that was full bore for rifled gun. I used a 0.735" RB in my smoothbore and in a borrowed rifled gun that was 0.727" groove diameter and saw no pressure signs at all. Even at about 0.008" over groove diameter they swaged down just fine. There is not much meat or bearing surface at the equator of a round ball.

TRG3 reported good accuracy in his rifled gun using 0.690" RB's in shotcups as well.

My opinion is that I might hesitate some to use a very tight fitting cylindrical slug in a shotcup but with a round ball I believe the petals will simply shear if fit is too tight. Accuracy will likely be poor but once petals give there will be little to no bore drag. I am assuming cylinder bore here... no choke.

I'm with BB on this one. However, again if you are worried then cut the petals down or use donut wads. Also BPI offers a brush wad that is simply a gas seal with an open cup on the other end. That cup will cradle the ball and keep it centered. I haven't tried those myself but others have and AJAY has posted info on them if you do a search.

Longbow

[EVR]

You guys could be totally correct about the safety issue. I do find it interesting that I cannot find a single load using the .690 RB and a WAA12 or similar wad w/ petals left on.

[725]

EVR. -- I leave the entire shot cup in tact ~ petals and all ~ with my .702 ball load. It's tight. I wanted it tight. The petals stay on (with my chosen amount of powder). It's a wonderfully accurate load. Increased amounts of powder did stress the shot cup to the point that they would deform. Lots more powder, and they would shear off. Once you get your projectile package designed and able travel down the barrel, I think there must be a component of velocity that must be arrived at. I'm not as knowledgeable as most of these guys, I just know what has worked, repeatedly, for me. Puts meat on my table every time I get a shot (so far) . I've stopped tinkering with a 12 ga. load. I've found what I need.

[EVR]

EVR. -- I leave the entire shot cup in tact ~ petals and all ~ with my .702 ball load. It's tight. I wanted it tight. The petals stay on (with my chosen amount of powder). It's a wonderfully accurate load. Increased amounts of powder did stress the shot cup to the point that they would deform. Lots more powder, and they would shear off. Once you get your projectile package designed and able travel down the barrel, I think there must be a component of velocity that must be arrived at. I'm not as knowledgeable as most of these guys, I just know what has worked, repeatedly, for me. Puts meat on my table every time I get a shot (so far) . I've stopped tinkering with a 12 ga. load. I've found what I need.

What wad are you using?

[longbow]

IIRC you use soft lead balls 725? If so that may be part of the reason you get away with such a tight fitting combo. Not really sure. I would figure plastic would give before lead but you are doing well with your combo so unless it is the wad choice I have no answers.

In the past, as I've mentioned a time or two, I couldn't get any sort of decent accuracy from 0.690" RB's in any shotcups I tried. Most had petals that were too thick so they sheared. I finally found a wad that fit (can't recall the wad brand) and tried it but no better results! Even though it was a light slide fit to bore the petals sheared like the tight fitting wads! Maybe softer/less tough plastic? No idea actually! At that point I gave up on the 0.690" RB's.

I know BPI lists (or listed in the slug manual I have) a load using one of their wads with petals left on and 0.690" RB and my Winchester 1 1/4 oz. wads just fit in my large single shot barrel (0.733") but not sure about my Slugster which has 0.730" bore). In Winchester pink 1 oz. shotcups the 0.690" RB is a fall through fit in my 0.733" barrel so may be about perfect for my Slugster.

I will be trying them out after I am done with an archery shoot or two and can get back to the shotguns.

I've had best success with 0.735" RB's naked on hard card wad column and undersize balls of 0.662" and 0.678" patched into shotcups to get proper fit. Oh... I normally use WW or range scrap which is generally pretty close to WW.

"I've stopped tinkering with a 12 ga. load. I've found what I need." Now there's where I want to be! Actually, If I could control my need to tinker I have several round ball loads that have done very well and a couple of slugs loads that are pretty good.

Longbow

[EVR]

EVR. -- I leave the entire shot cup in tact ~ petals and all ~ with my .702 ball load. It's tight. I wanted it tight. The petals stay on (with my chosen amount of powder). It's a wonderfully accurate load. Increased amounts of powder did stress the shot cup to the point that they would deform. Lots more powder, and they would shear off. Once you get your projectile package designed and able travel down the barrel, I think there must be a component of velocity that must be arrived at. I'm not as knowledgeable as most of these guys, I just know what has worked, repeatedly, for me. Puts meat on my table every time I get a shot (so far) . I've stopped tinkering with a 12 ga. load. I've found what I need.

I should have asked;

Have you ever tried to push a ball/wad combination thru the chamber and barrel? How much force does it take?

[EVR]

IIRC you use soft lead balls 725? If so that may be part of the reason you get away with such a tight fitting combo. Not really sure. I would figure plastic would give before lead but you are doing well with your combo so unless it is the wad choice I have no answers.

In the past, as I've mentioned a time or two, I couldn't get any sort of decent accuracy from 0.690" RB's in any shotcups I tried. Most had petals that were too thick so they sheared. I finally found a wad that fit (can't recall the wad brand) and tried it but no better results! Even though it was a light slide fit to bore the petals sheared like the tight fitting wads! Maybe softer/less tough plastic? No idea actually! At that point I gave up on the 0.690" RB's.

I know BPI lists (or listed in the slug manual I have) a load using one of their wads with petals left on and 0.690" RB and my Winchester 1 1/4 oz. wads just fit in my large single shot barrel (0.733") but not sure about my Slugster which has 0.730" bore). In Winchester pink 1 oz. shotcups the 0.690" RB is a fall through fit in my 0.733" barrel so may be about perfect for my Slugster.

I will be trying them out after I am done with an archery shoot or two and can get back to the shotguns.

I've had best success with 0.735" RB's naked on hard card wad column and undersize balls of 0.662" and 0.678" patched into shotcups to get proper fit. Oh... I normally use WW or range scrap which is generally pretty close to WW.

"I've stopped tinkering with a 12 ga. load. I've found what I need." Now there's where I want to be! Actually, If I could control my need to tinker I have several round ball loads that have done very well and a couple of slugs loads that are pretty good.

Longbow

I've got a trick I want to try and will report.

[centershot]

"I've stopped tinkering with a 12 ga. load. I've found what I need." Now there's where I want to be! Actually, If I could control my need to tinker I have several round ball loads that have done very well and a couple of slugs loads that are pretty good.

Longbow[/QUOTE]

Longbow, what fun would that be? By jumping down this rabbit hole we already confirm we are "tinkerers", yes?

[725]

EVR. -- Claybuster. ~. CB21118-12

longbow. -- my balls are soft. (pure lead)

center shot. -- My 12 ga. RB load is a killer. That huge, soft ball - even though it's a ballistic nightmare - flies true, lands hard, and the work it does is stunning. Having had my success with the 12 ga. I've set my sights on the 20 ga. I plan to tinker on.

My thoughts on petal deformation: Probably a lot of causes, but one seems to be launching pressure. My load should be a ***** cat by book standards. It is formidable even though many might think it mild. Many, me included, tend to look toward, "How fast can I make this world class, life ending, means of total destruction, go." Occasionally, and this load is one of those times, where less is more.

Best to all and good luck in the quest................. 725

[longbow]

Centershot: Yes! Of course... I'd just like a little more success than I've had recently! Time to pick a few obvious good performers and either accept their limitations (mostly long range accuracy) or limit tinkering to trying to improve those few.

725: In one sense I have to say I am sorry to hear your balls are soft!

In another sense I agree that these big 'ol round balls are capable of pretty amazing performance but we shouldn't forget that the old military smoothbore muskets tended to range in bore sizes from .69 to .75 caliber and they didn't generate as much velocity as a modern shotgun does. We're going to get enhanced performance from that even with relatively mild loads.

A lump of lead that weighs over an ounce traveling along at 1200 to 1400 FPS is a substantial short range projectile.

Longbow

[Bob9863]

Ive been using AA12 wads and .690 RB but found to get the best results I had to sit them on a hard felt cushion and roll crimp with a hard over shot card.
I've shot that through a modified choke but it was less then ideal, but from a cylinder or Imp/Cyl they did respectable.
But I limit their range to around 50m as past that they get a little unpredictable and I don't feel comfortable using something that I'm not 90% confident in on game if I do my part.
I think of as an archery equivalent load if that makes sense.

[725]

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