[QUOTE I am not sure I would ever chuck up a brush and spin it. That sounds like a recipe for disaster.
=waksupi;4630806]Amen.[/QUOTE]
I third this. spinning a brush in the bore just doesn't sound functional/safe. I fail to see how it would get into the rifling.
I'll wrap some strands from a chore boy pad around a bore brush if needed but I PC all my boolits and seldom have to clean my barrels.
your going to be there a long time trying to actually get a barrel clean with hoppes#9.
It's almost impossible to make a hard and fast "this will do it" recommendation. There are several things going on in the barrel of an older, previously owned rifle with an unknown history. First, of course, is copper jacket residue. There could also be cupro-nickel residue. There is likely lead build up. Then, there is the pitting which contain rust. Probably there is no one bore cleaner that will do everything.Originally Posted by RED BEAR
Hoppe's No. 9 is great stuff, and most of us have used it since we first started shooting. But it does its best, and is adequate for cleaning barrels that are properly maintained from the beginning. It is insufficient for old neglected bores, which is not to say that it won't help at all. As Kev18 has observed, it will always dissolve something after a couple of days.
Were his rifle mine, I would start with some very hot, soapy water. After a thorough scrubbing and drying I'd next use a generous amount of Sweet's 7.62 bore cleaner. This is strong stuff, both in smelling and reaction, and you have to stay on top of it. It will attack the copper, and the nasty stuff that will come out of your rifle's bore will astound you. You want to use several soaked patches, then let it sit for 1 5 - 30 min. It's like using hand tools, you have to apply the tool to the work, so you need to get enough in there to do the job. When wiping it out of the bore, use patches wet with Hoppe's or kerosene. Dry, then apply more Sweet's. The Sweet's attacks the copper and brass residue, and it doesn't make good sense to use a copper bronze bore brush with it. Since there is of necessity a time period lapse that must occur between applications you probably won't get it to quit coming out black/blue/green in one session, and cleaning over two or three days may be necessary. After the patches aren't colored anymore, I'd once again apply the hot, soapy water, then thoroughly dry and oil. Once the barrel is clean to your satisfaction you can dispense with the hot, soapy water in the future unless you shoot corrosive ammo.
The very best bore cleaning systems are electrolysis and ultrasonic, but the financial investment is so steep that even for a professional gunsmith the cost is prohibitive. If you find a gunsmith that has this equipment you can expect to pay accordingly for its use. However, it positively will remove all deposits of bullet metal and rust.
Other brush options are somewhat limited to the tornado brush or stainless steel brushes. These are available from Brownell's, and the stainless brushes that resemble the bronze brushes should be used sparingly as they are very aggressive. Another good trick is to use either a worn bore brush or one of the next caliber size down and wrap it with some stainless steel wool. If your bore is so bad that judicious application of a stainless brush is required and you can't find one specifically for rifles, the pistol brushes are usually available and will work.
Pitted barrels present a special problem because, although through persistent cleaning you may be able to get them clean, every time you subsequently fire the rifle some of the fouling will scrape off into the pits. Pits are created by rust and neglect, the result of the steel being oxidized into rust, and when the rust is removed the result is the pit. It is very difficult to get all of the rust out of the very bottom of the pit, and left alone it will continue to rust. If rust remains the only way to stop the action is to seal it off from the air. That's where an application of a good gun oil or something like RIG grease between uses comes in. With an unpitted bore just one pass with a protective agent may be enough, but a generous application is required for the pitted bore. Therefore, it is advisable to store the firearm upside down standing on it's muzzle on a folded paper towel or absorbent piece of cloth so that the oil doesn't run into the stock.
In addressing similar questions in the past I've generated replies like, "I wouldn't use Sweet's on my guns. Too hard on them and will etch the steel." That's why you've got to stay with the job and periodically wipe the used application out and apply a new one. Bear in mind that we're talking about a severely fouled and pitted bore here. Otherwise, Hoppe's and a brass/bronze bore brush would be sufficient for most jobs.
Hey thanks i will give sweets a try the main gun i want to use it on is 8x50r Austrian the barrel has some pitting but not to bad.
Beware of too much cleaning. I have mi-surp 6.5 that I never cleaned with anything but Hoppes and patches. Bore pitted end to end but would still shoot 1" with 160 gr Hornadys. THEN I bought the Dyna-Tek Koolaid and cleaned to bare metal and treated. Shazam ----- 3" groups. Took 40 rounds of 160s (uncleaned) to get it back to 1". (I use Dyna-Tek on new rifles and those with perfect bores and it works as advertised.)
JB and Kroil!
1. Run a patch well saturated with Kroil through the bore.
2. Then impregnate a patch with JB bore paste and short stroke the length of the barrel. Look in the end of the barrel and see if you can see any copper streaks. If not, proceed. If you see copper, repeat the JB treatment.
3. Run two individual patches saturated with Kroil through the bore.
4. Dry the bore and chamber with two clean patches.
5. Apply two small drops of Kroil on a patch and run through the bore prior to shooting, and one dry patch.
I usually swab with two or three Kroil patches first until one comes out that looks more pink than gray before I go to the JB treatment.
I was pretty skeptical of this practice when I first started, but checked the bore with Sweet's and Slip 2000 and Butch's left overnight without any traces of copper.
There is a lot of misunderstanding about JB bore paste. This is NOT lapping compound.
It does not harm the bore. But is IS an amazing carbon and copper remover.
Yes, you can use Ed's Red instead of Kroil and it works EXACTLY the same way.
The ENEMY is listening.
HE wants to know what YOU know.
Keep it to yourself.
The reason for the hard cleaning is the pits are holding fouling and leading in them releasing it slowly each cleaning. Getting down into them with a brush or patch and jag is hard. Wetting and soaking will help. with a lot of chemical cleaners air is need to make them work also so filling the bore isn't that great. Work the brush thru the bore slowly this gives the bristles mire of a chance to get into the pits and not pass over. Another is use the brush for a jag wrapping a patch around it. With the pits this is a job for the chemical cleaners since the mechanical cleaners and scrubbing just wont get down into the pits. One of the problems with pitting is as you clean and remove fouling the patches replace it in the lower pits.
Keep in mind barrels from that era were a softer steel than todays barrels. Running a brush in a drill motor will act as a lap rounding corners and causing damage more so as it picks up fouling and becomes charged. Long slow even passes with a good rod will do the job.
Sweets is a very aggressive chemical cleaner for jacket fouling. A high ammonia content. Follow the directions closely. There are many good cleaners available. I use Shooter Choice kroil mixed 50-50 The mix seems to penetrate between fouling and barrel allowing it to be lifted out removed.
What you might try is wet and brush as above don't patch it several days sacrifice a case and make a funnel on a hose with the fired case as an end. Before patching flush barrel with solvent washing the loosened fouling out of the barrel and pits. Patch dry and see what you have
If it shoots good, I wouldn't clean it. Unless you're using Blackpowder.
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Its a 40-82. A nice caliber. I have multiple threads on it, in the lever gun section. I had trouble relaoding for it.
Here's what it looks like though if anyone is interested.
I dont use patches sold at the store. I end up using normal kitchen paper towels. They absorb alot better and fit tight in the barrel.
I split a sheet in half and push it down the barrel while its soaked in Hoppes. Now il just let it sit as people mentioned.
Plug the muzzle and point it to the floor. Fill with Hoppies or the Benchrest formula all the way up the barrel. Let it sit muzzle down for a couple days then empty the barrel into a bucket. Now run a brush up and down then follow with some patches. It should be pretty clean now.
Otherwise look up how to make a home made 9v electrolysis to get everything out. It is the exact same thing as a commercial versions. You can even use a couple D batteries. I seen one where they used a flashlight. Once the bulb goes out the rod is either corroded or full of whatever is in your bore.
Electrolysis cleaning will work.
But it only removes the Metallic particles, like Reverse Plating.
But if you are lucky, the dirt and powder fouling is on top of the lead and copper in the pits or grooves.
It is worth a try.
I have done it, but when cleaned, I could really see how badly the barrel was pitted now that all the stuff was removed.
I think il fill up the barrel. See what happens.
I use Ed's Red a brass brush and a few patches. What ever is left after that I just don't worry about when working on a 100+ year old gun.
NRA Benefactor Member NRA Golden Eagle
Oh okay, I remember at least one of the pictures. I'll have to check out those threads.
Been thinking, when you do get it clean, you could use a moly grease in the bore and then lube with moly in it to help with the fowling associated with the pitting.
I don't have an 'Opinion', I have a bore scope.
Cleaning Rod:
Traditional rod with roller bearings in the handle so you can SCRUB the bore.
Muzzle to chamber & back, over & over & over....
The lazier you are, the more fouling you leave.
There is no substitution for elbow grease.
Protect the muzzle crown from the rod.
A high quality polished stainless, coated, or brass rod will have a difficult (but not impossible) time dinging the crown.
Protecting the crown is usually accomplished by cleaning from the chamber.
Something as simple as a drilled out empty case can protect the chamber, or you can get a chamber cleaning tool.
Copper:
Montana Exterme bore cleaner is about the strongest copper remover I've ever used commercially.
Use a NYLON/synthetic brush, this stuff will attack brass/bronze brushes in short order.
Synthetic brushes don't mat down, bristles bending and becoming ineffective.
Lead,
A good lead solvent, let it stand, brush like crazy, repeat.
Keep the brush sopping wet so the scratches the brush puts in the lead the solvent can attack.
Lead corrodes quickly to protect itself, no solvent I've tried will attack through a corrosion layer.
Ammonia attacks copper, acids attack lead.
When you use acids, you MUST IMMEDIATELY apply oil to the steel to prevent rust.
Electrolysis,
Electrolysis is a last resort move and needs to be done correctly.
Most people use currents that will remove steel right along with the fouling.
It will also remove copper/lead from pits in the barrel, and remove small surface particles of the barrel material leaving a textured surface.
You will probably have to fire polish the bore after using electrolysis.
-----------
While everyone has an 'Opinion' about breaking in a barrel, it does help.
Shoot, clean, shoot, clean, etc.
Scratches, pits, defects & tool chatter marks in the barrel will scrap copper off the jacket.
The next round down the chamber will pressure that copper to the point it becomes liquid, and will hydraulically press any defect larger.
The higher power the round, the greater the effect.
The shoot & clean break in smooths over the sharp edges, breaks rough edges & breaks off chips left from machining.
The barrel often becomes a snap to clean once smoothed down with break in.
Lead bullets can't create the pressure to hydraulic defects, but lead builds up in layers & corrodes, and this can take SEVERAL cleaning sessions to get removed.
You have to remove corrosion, let solvent attack, remove corrosion, etc.
When you break in a lead shooter, do it with copper jackets,
Or, if it's an old rifle, clean to base metal, then OIL the bore between rounds for about 100 rounds.
Oil & pressure will burnish the bore and make it easier to clean.
A foot note from history,
Greased WOODEN bullets were used to break in rifle bores and test actions.
A grit impregnated into the wood was used to lap the bore to even the rifling of the day out,
And greased wooden bullets were used to burnish the bore before firing lead ammo.
Keep in mind these were black powder days, lots of hard carbon, and rifling tools were much more crude than what's used today.
No one laps bores with a hardwood stick anymore, but you used what our had back then...
Everyone has offered good tips.
An ammonia based solvent like Hoppes will attack the brass jag just as much as the copper fouling in the bore, so that's one source of discolored patches.
A pitted barrel will always have some dirt/rust trapped in the rust and it's nearly impossible to get it all out.
JB bore pate is good for neglected bores but even that has its limitations.
I use an ammonia based solvent when shooting jacketed bullets and Kroil when shooting lead.
Once you get a barrel clean, it's far easier to keep it clean.
@ jeep Hammer
You are Spot On.
But the only other alternative is to have the bore redone or sleeved by Bob Hoyt.
You cant fix the damage that has already been done in the past.
The point is to lap/polish by firing when the barrel is new, reducing what can snag & build up causing more damage.
Ounce of prevention being worth a pound of cure and all that...
Secondly, get the crud out and burnish finish a used barrel.
In older barrels, the steel used will never spit a snow with patch out since you need to IMMEDIATELY protect the bore against rust.
The older carbon steel barrels will rust in seconds, oiling will make for oily patches.
If you burn the burnish on by firing, much like 'Seasoning' an iron skillet, the bore will be protected & lead will clean easier. It will probably shoot better also.
Relining can be done my about any trained & competent gunsmith with the correct tools.
I hesitate to do relining with very old classics, they are antique classics and should probably be preserved as is.
I agree with the "Antiques should be kept in the Original Condition as long as possible "
But if you can no longer shoot it, then it is just a piece of iron hanging on the wall with A story.
If you bought a brand new Corvette in 1963, and it got a flat tire, would you not replace it ?
I am more impressed by something from the past that still works. rather than some Museum piece to Look at, even if it had to have a little Maintenance to keep it working.
That shows that it was probably used heavily in the past, and probably has many untold stories that go with it.
But to Bubba something to some Modern caliber , just to make it Convenient, is just wrong.
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