Share, 44-40 vs the 30-30

[Norske]

Knockdown, Taylor Knockout, and Matunas' Optimal Range for Big Game are all based on momentum, not kinetic energy. The difference becomes important if the game is large enough or dangerous enough that the hunter wants to be able to break bones.
The often quoted comparison is the KE of a hot-loaded 22-250 is equal or greater than an over-the-counter Rem Core-Lokt 45-70. Both will kill a medium sized whitetail deer, but only one is effective on black bear and bigger game, including bison. KE= 1/2 m times velocity squared; Momentum is m times velocity.
To compare KE vs M dig out a couple boxes of factory ammo. Divide the published KE by the velocity and multiply that answer times 2 to get the momentum of that load.
The diameter of the bullet adds another important factor as does expansion. Now the formulas get complicated.
Yes, recoil is also calculated via momentum. Newton's law of action/reaction is momentum based, not KE based.

[Norske]

Knockdown, Taylor Knockout, and Matunas' Optimal Range for Big Game are all based on momentum, not kinetic energy. The difference becomes important if the game is large enough or dangerous enough that the hunter wants to be able to break bones.
The often quoted comparison is the KE of a hot-loaded 22-250 is equal or greater than an over-the-counter Rem Core-Lokt 45-70. Both will kill a medium sized whitetail deer, but only one is effective on black bear and bigger game, including bison. KE= 1/2 m times velocity squared; Momentum is m times velocity. A 44 magnum is about as effictive as a 30-30.
To compare KE vs M dig out a couple boxes of factory ammo. Divide the published KE by the velocity and multiply that answer times 2 to get the momentum of that load.
The diameter of the bullet adds another important factor as does expansion. Now the formulas get complicated.
Yes, recoil is also calculated via momentum. Newton's law of action/reaction is momentum based, not KE based.

[Maine1]

38-40
44-40
30-30
30-06

I just don't think it gets any better!

This is SO dangerous though..

I knew very little about the 38-40 until a few months ago. There is a really nice 38- 56 at a shop I go by a few times a year, and I have to admire it every time. Since I knew only a little about the caliber, I started looking into it. And that brought me to 38-40.
I DONT NEED another caliber!...but like I said, the siren song and the historical aspect are very interesting.

Truthfully, though they have their limitations, I still think a guy who has a good lever rifle that he truly knows, in a caliber he has established loads for, and shot enough to know his dope and range is well armed even today, regardless of the date that caliber was originally released.

Look at the popularity of the 45-70, still in use today, and as popular as ever thanks to the guide guns and single shots still made in that caliber.

[Ajohns]

Don't be scared, it's only an investment lol. The trick is try get as many as you can so you can test yourself on which one is the better.

[Savvy Jack]

Hey, Jack -- you missed .30-40!

edited...lol

[Savvy Jack]

"properly loaded, this cartridge has more knockdown power than a .30-.30"

bwaaaahaaaaahaaaa............considering earlier in sharpe's description of the 44-40 he states; "the 44/40 makes an excellent cartridge, properly loaded, for all game up to deer. , and although the author does not consider it sufficiently powerful for the latter game......"

ding ding we have a winner!!!!!!!!!!

That is correct and the first thing I noticed!!!!!!

Sharp calls the 44-40 not acquitted for deer then turns around and says the 44-40 is more powerful than the 30-30 when loaded correctly. Not that is is or isn't, I do take notice on "opinions" when I read books.

[northmn]

The 44-40 in the 73 was what is called an opportunistic combination. The 73 was about as handy of rifle as one could find and when the magazine was loaded was basically an early AR15. Also back then seasons were somewhat hazy. Winchester must love how much many folks trust their marketing when they stated that the 32-20, a 73 cartridge is good for both small game and deer or that the 44-40 was good out to 200 yards or something like that. IN BP days the 22's were not as handy as today. 73's probably got wore out as much from scabbard wear and bouncing around in buggies and wagons as from shooting.

I point this out because technical advances gave us other cartridges and rifles that were so much improved. Many say that the only reason the 30-30 has survived is because of the handy rifles like the 94 and 336's that it is chambered in. A 94 or 336 is just as handy as a 73 and both have also seen a lot of carry in modern buggies like pickups and on tractors and quads. Longer range also. But then you have to look at all the 94 offerings like the 25-35 and 32 special. Same for the 73.

DEP

[Der Gebirgsjager]

northmn -- I agree with much of what you said. Interesting how many 1873s were made, and it seems relatively few survived. I guess they got used up, or went to the Old Guns Home to die. Great combination, the 1873 and the .44-40 WCF, and we should not forget that they were also chambered in other calibers of which even fewer seemed to survive. The .44-40 will get the job done within range limitations, and I like it.

Could be that the .30-30 Win. just survived because of the light, handy rifles in which it is normally chambered, but it does have the attributes of having mild recoil and of getting the job done to which it is usually applied. It just fills a certain spot in the cartridge world, and I think it will still be around for a long time. I like the .30-30.

I've got both, like both, but if one had to go I'd keep the .30-30.

DG

[Gray Fox]

If I recall correctly, Tom Horn, the cattlemen's association hit man, switched to the .30-30 because of its increased range and flatter trajectory over whatever BP lever gun he had been using to take out sod busters. GF

[onelight]

May be it has to do with a sectional density on a 170 gr. .308. Bullet .256 as compared to 200 gr. .430 bullet sectional density of .122 all else being equal (bullet design & velocity) the .256 will win in penetration and retained velocity at long range.
44-40 and 3030 are both fun old classics that still do the job.

[Ozark mike]

I see where a 44 mag was compared with a 3030 that's a different Galaxy altogether. My mother back in the 80s shot a doe at about 150 yds the shot went thru a blackjack oak and the dear acted like it had been hit with a sledgehammer as if it knocked it down. This was with a 44 Ruger auto rifle

[Texas by God]

Phil Sharpe was known to drink quite a bit.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[RED BEAR]

The 44-40 suffers from the same thing all large heavy bullets do at range you shoot in an arch. The 30/30 is a flatter shooting round with more power and penetration. I own neither and don't hunt but i have been looking for a deal on a 30/30 for a while. Wouldn't mind a 44/40 ether but one thing at a time. But in reality to say one is better for this or that they both have there uses and i hope to enjoy shooting them both someday.

[Savvy Jack]

The 44-40 suffers from the same thing all large heavy bullets do at range you shoot in an arch. The 30/30 is a flatter shooting round with more power and penetration. I own neither and don't hunt but i have been looking for a deal on a 30/30 for a while. Wouldn't mind a 44/40 ether but one thing at a time. But in reality to say one is better for this or that they both have there uses and i hope to enjoy shooting them both someday.

I have both and prefer the 30-30....really the 30-06 but I just don't mention those much

[Maine1]

its funny, but after owning a variety of rifles, shooting them, lugging them over hill and dale, shooting some more, loading ammo, and having them out in the weather....it occurred to me that though the thought is NOT original, the 94/336 really IS a nearly perfectly balanced package of portability, power, accuracy, and HANDINESS when moving on foot in rougher country and you might have to take a quick shot. The 94 in particular I find excellent.
What I HAVE noticed, that I really did not care about before, is the difference in feel of a pre-64 1894. The sights are MUCH finer than on my 1971 30-30. Makes it easier to hit with at longer ranges. The rifle feels tighter, like its under tension.
BOTH are accurate.
The 44-40 I do not own, but I have a marlin 44 magnum, only got it this year so not a lot of longer range shooting on that gun as yet.
Plan on doing quite a bit of head to head work with 30-30's this year, comparing 150/170 gr SP rounds ,a s well as the 160 FTX rounds, to see if the FTX is REALLY all that better than the 150 or 170.
Im thinking that one would just be better off deciding on a round that shot well in their rifle 150 or 170, stocking up on bullets and brass, and shooting that round until you could hit with it to the effective range of it. Duh. Just like granpaw said.
It will never be a 308, '06 or one of the more modern rounds, but it still will do 80-90% or practical rifle tasks without much fuss. and it does not eject brass into the snow, grass, or next county so I can reload it. its just enough, overall.

[northmn]

Maine, just to complicate your life a little more Barnes now makes a 190 grain just for the 30-30. They can be driven at about 2000 fps. I used a cast at about that weight and liked it enough to get a 35 Remington. Just thought I would mention it.

30-30's today are all carbines. Back in the day many had longer barrels with a longer sighting radius and did shoot flatter than the BP rifles.
The 44-40 and the 73 were made until the 1930's I believe but the 30-30 and other cartridges similar, pretty much made the old obsolete very quick. Estimating range was more tricky in the early days and the issue with the punkin slingers was mostly the fact that if one misjudged by a few yards the trajectory was such that a miss was easy. This winter I have been rereading Jim Corbett's stories about hunting in India. He liked to use a 275 or 7X57 as many call it for longer range hunting. He would talk about the Express sights used back then where he would fold up the 300 yard sight for instance to shoot at the range he estimated. We have to use glass today. He also wrote about his successful shots. Didn't write as much about the ones that weren't. Corbett was still to be respected.

Those that don't use one tend to misjudge the 30-30. There was a video on them where the speaker was talking about the misconceptions on the 30-30. Where an individual missed a deer because he held over its back to allow for bullet drop at 75 yards. I have shot deer with them and watched my daughter take a few with one. When some put them down too much I have mentioned that she did well with one and anyone with the skill of a 14 year old girl should be able to use one well. Its a rather unique cartridge in that the bullets made for it are made for the 30-30, Other 30 calibers tend to use bullets for a variety of cartridges. Hornady now makes a 300 Savage bullet which is good because I felt the generic bullets I sued in my Savage bolt action when I had one did not perform up to expectations. They killed deer but I did not see any real differences between them and the 30-30. They likely penetrated into trees and the ground on the other side further.

DEP

[Ajohns]

Barnes now makes a 190 grain just for the 30-30 you say? Could be just like a modern day 303 Savage? Some writers thought the 303 from Savage was superior to the 30WCF. It'll never change.

[Bazoo]

I have seen the new Barnes 190 bullet in their catalog, I bet it'll up the killing power a fair bit. I wouldn't hesitate to use the 30-30 on elk, in fact that's one of my hunting goals.

[northmn]

Barnes now makes a 190 grain just for the 30-30 you say? Could be just like a modern day 303 Savage? Some writers thought the 303 from Savage was superior to the 30WCF. It'll never change.

Barnes and Hawk, with Buffalo Bore loading the Hawk. Real popular cast bullet for the 30-30 was also the RCBS 180 FN which often threw a 190 gra bullet with softer alloys.

I got a bit windy on this post. I like historical firearms and used to build muzzle loaders. As the 44-40 was such a popular cartridge I was some what interested in the why. I almost bought a 73 clone but it was not in 44-40 so I let it go.

DEP

[MT Gianni]

There is much to be said about a cartridge you can by anywhere vs one you can special order brass for occasionally.