Share, 44-40 vs the 30-30

[Savvy Jack]

On a side note;

Sharpe, not Share....geeesh!

"The Winchester bore diameter is .429. All available soft points are about .424. One shooter gets finest results by swaging .424 bullets to .429 for Winchester rifles. Remington and Marlin rifles measure .424, therefore factory bullets are satisfactory in those barrels. Properly loaded, this cartridge has more knockdown powder than a .30-.30" ~ Sharpe - 1937

Although I have measured old 1920's JSP bullets to be .4255 to .426, I have measured some older dissected swaged bullets as small as .422, so I think there is some Merritt in what Sharpe says. I 100% agree with the 30-30 remark BUT only for closer distance shooting, I would prefer the 30-30 if it meant going hungry if I missed a deer with the shot at greater distances of 150 yards.

Let the flaming begin!!

[Ozark mike]

I'd take a 44 WCF don't have much use for 30 30

[Texas by God]

If you're talking cast boolits, I agree the wider flat nose 44-40 might hit harder. But with jacketed bullets I think the 30-30 would win out. BUT this is conjecture on my part; I've killed lots of deer with 30-30 jacketed and one with cast. All I've taken with the 44-40 is one Turkey. I have both and love both.

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[woody1]

Not trying to disparage the 44 WCF, but at no point does it outdo the 30 WCF in energy imparted even in the HV loadings with 200 gr. bullets. The only difference is possibly the size of hole it might make.

[Bazoo]

The 30wcf might not have as much knockdown power up front but it will make up for it in penetration. Judging the cartridges by their performances on deer ain't much of a comparison. The larger game, moose, elk, black bear, brown bear, sea lion, polar bear, that's where the comparison should be made.

I don't know the tract record of the 44wcf on any of those species, but I know the 30wcf has counted more than it's share of elk, moose, and blackies, and while not ideal I know even brown bear has fallen to it. Undoubtedly it all was with jacketed bullets.

I say the 30WCF is superior even if jacketed bullets are used in both, or if cast used in both.

[Savvy Jack]

Why would Winchester design and manufacture the 30-30 if it were not indeed superior to the -40's?

[Maine1]

the 30-30 does not get a lot of credit these days, as environmental contamination has resulted in deer and other critters eating Kevlar and other bullet resistant fibers, thus the older calibers like 30-30, 3006 ect are just not powerful enough anymore, and we need 300 win mag, 7mm mag, ect..
I kid of course...

the 30-30 works, works better than it really should on paper. In its day it was known as a powerful round and used on everything, as was the 308, '06, ect. Just as the 44-40 was in its day
Those were days when most working men could afford a single rifle, learned to shoot it, and used it as the tool it was.

[Ozark mike]

My legal first deer was shot w 3030 but still I like the 44wcf better. but I'm also a serious black powder addict

[Maine1]

Mike, I hear you there...those BP cartridge rifles have a siren song.
I don't have one.
I don't NEED another gun related project.
Yet, it seems like every shop I frequent has some NICE hypen-caliber levergun that is really cool.
last show I was at, one guy had an original 1893 marlin..unfired, mint condition...
Another shop has a worn Winchester 1896 in 38-56...its got no finish left, but its smooth as glass.

[Ozark mike]

My therapist says no more 45-70s but what does she know ha ha
I've been thinking of a Shiloh 50 2 1/2 but money doesn't grow on trees in this state

[Savvy Jack]

the 30-30 does not get a lot of credit these days, as environmental contamination has resulted in deer and other critters eating Kevlar and other bullet resistant fibers, thus the older calibers like 30-30, 3006 ect are just not powerful enough anymore, and we need 300 win mag, 7mm mag, ect..
I kid of course...

the 30-30 works, works better than it really should on paper. In its day it was known as a powerful round and used on everything, as was the 308, '06, ect. Just as the 44-40 was in its day
Those were days when most working men could afford a single rifle, learned to shoot it, and used it as the tool it was.

30-40
38-40
44-40
30-30
30-06

I just don't think it gets any better!

[Der Gebirgsjager]

Hey, Jack -- you missed .30-40!

[Ozark mike]

Ah yes the beloved kraig

[Texas by God]

The .30 WCF was the sporting answer to the .30 Army military cartridge. John Browning invented the 94 Winchester but I don't know if he designed the cartridge. I love it!

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[Bazoo]

JMB didn't invent the 30-30 cartridge. I have read about it's inception but can't remember now if they said specifically who invented it other than just the boys over at winchester. I will go back and see if I can find that snippit again.

[northmn]

What is knockdown power? I have never seen any example of it. Are they saying a deer shot with a 44-40 won't run as far as one shot with a 30-30? The concept in a hunting rifle is basically hogwash. I shot one once that ran about 50-60 yards with a 45-70 and a Gould hollow point. That would beat the 44-40 hands down. As far as cast in a 30-30, if you know what you are doing you can get a cast bullet that expands as well as any jacketed. The 30-30 is about as easy to load with cast as any cartridge I have seen and can be loaded to about 2000 fps with a 190 grain bullet. Plus you don't have to take any extra care for flimsy case mouths that can easily buckle.

The 94 pretty much made the 44-40 obsolete with its smokeless offerings. Even the 44 magnum would only have an advantage up close over the 30-30, due to their poor sectional density they lose velocity pretty quick. Every one wants to compare deer rifles to the 30-30. Frank Barnes in Cartridges of the World used the 30-30 as a yard stick for deer cartridges and loved to say this one or that one was better. My experiences did not parallel a lot of his comments, as they were based on energy. The 44-40 is a special interest cartridge for historical enthusiasts but for practical purposes it is relegated into the other BP cartridges that the 30-30 and other like it made obsolete, even the modern 44 mag is a better up close choice. Many of the 44-40 rifles are also not meant to take 44 mag level loads. Lots of game was taken with those old cartridges but they were constantly trying to get more range out of them.

The 44-40 remained because of the sheer numbers of rifles made for it. The 92 Winchester and the 94 Marlin had to be resurrected due to cowboy shooting interests. The 94 Marlin got adapted to pistol cartridges that got popular with the interchangeability enthusiasts. A concept less practical than some realize. When I was younger I talked to a lot of older men that lived through the depression like my father did. They had a deer rifle, often a Winchester 94, many times a Savage 99, a shotgun and a 22 rifle. A pistol many of them held in high esteem was a 22 Colt woodsman. Any 44-40's or 32-20's etc were given to the kids to hunt with until they grew into a regular rifle.

DEP

[northmn]

We get caught up in that "which is better" thinking or debate a lot. I am as bad as any one. I wondered for a while how the 44-40 got so popular as it was pretty anemic even in its day. The "serious" riflemen used single shots and more powerful cartridges.

It was a handy cartridge in all of its uses. In Winchester it was the 44WCF, I believe Marlin was the one that gave it the 44-40 moniker. There were singles shots that used it and pump rifles. There was even one smooth bore that used 44-40 bird shot loads. It was not a powerful cartridge but it was compact and sold in boxes of 50. Trappers and cowboys would sometimes spend time in a cabin and would have to pack in supplies with pack horses, which meant every ounce counted. It had enough power to handle larger game, yet would work on smaller stuff. With its higher magazine capacity it was also used for personal defense against other humans, which also made it popular with lawmen. IN its place it was a handy cartridge that lasted up to the mid 1930's. There is more to cartridge comparisons than ballistics.

DEP

[Larry Gibson]

"Properly loaded, this cartridge has more knockdown power than a .30-.30"

Bwaaaahaaaaahaaaa............considering earlier in Sharpe's description of the 44-40 he states; "The 44/40 makes an excellent cartridge, properly loaded, for all game up to deer. , and although the author does not consider it sufficiently powerful for the latter game......"

[Ozark mike]

The only thing I can think of that may knock something down is recoil or maybe a 460wby vs small game

[Norske]

Knockdown, Taylor Knockout, and Matunas' Optimal Range for Big Game are all based on momentum, not kinetic energy. The difference becomes important if the game is large enough or dangerous enough that the hunter wants to be able to break bones.
The often quoted comparison is the KE of a hot-loaded 22-250 is equal or greater than an over-the-counter Rem Core-Lokt 45-70. Both will kill a medium sized whitetail deer, but only one is effective on black bear and bigger game, including bison. KE= 1/2 m times velocity squared; Momentum is m times velocity.
To compare KE vs M dig out a couple boxes of factory ammo. Divide the published KE by the velocity and multiply that answer times 2 to get the momentum of that load.
The diameter of the bullet adds another important factor as does expansion. Now the formulas get complicated.