Can we all agree that a double-action revolver is best for bear defense?

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I know dozens of people that have and pack Marlin Guide guns in 45/70 mostly and a few with 450 Marlins.
I'm a bolt rifle guy and had my final 458 Win mag built in 94/95 . Built on a stainless Ruger M77 Mk2. Its killed tons of brown bears all in an absolutely wonderful way.
I had a Marlin 45/70 . But didn't like how it would buck the action open with top handloads. And it was blued and wood stocked. I knew it would end up looking like a piece of old rebar on a piece of drift wood if I kept taking it with me in the skiff so I traded it on a stainless synthetic Model 70 338.
Skiffs and 4 wheelers and salt water and generally just being with me out in the brush is kinda hard on stuff.
Now that I live in The Interior. It would be fun to have a 45/70 GG again.
But I would run a 405 gr @ 1600 fps or less.

[RJM52]

...instead of a shotgun or large heavy rifle, what are the thoughts on a pistol caliber carbine... .41 Mag, .44 Mag, .45 Colt...or .454...

With a heavy for the caliber HC bullet don't see why it wouldn't work and in a handy stainless carbine would be handy to carry...

[35remington]

It has already been pointed out that heavy hard cast slugs are available for the shotgun both as loaded ammo and as components that can be loaded. See Dixie slugs, for instance.

A person can figure out a way to get them (possible ways were enumerated earlier by other posters). Here is a place that has the desirable slugs in stock that delivers them anywhere in Alaska. That did not seem at all hard to discover, and glad to help. Search their inventory under “shotgun.”

http://10mmbelow.com/anchorage_inven...0&sort=nameAsc



Slugs do in fact penetrate very sufficiently and since this has mooted the question of shotgun adequacy or penetration, which was the original unfounded claim, back to topic.

I can’t see a pistol caliber carbine when something more powerful that weighs the same can be had.

The “buck the action open” thing with the Marlin occurs because recoil drives the gun against the hand holding the pistol grip and lever which opens the bolt. Consider it a head start on firing another fast shot and treat it like a gift. Said by a Marlin 45-70 owner.

Overly hot handloads make the fired round hard to eject. Different thing. Don’t shoot overly hot handloads as they can make the gun hard to operate when you need it most. If the loads are within spec and the lever opens easily you are in a desirable place.

[pmer]

I hate to add to the thread drift but my ar 15 is short and light and shoots 405 grain boolits at a average of 1625 fps.

Kinda fits between pistol carbine and elephant gun.

[Idaho45guy]

I hate to add to the thread drift but my ar 15 is short and light and shoots 405 grain boolits at a average of 1625 fps.

Kinda fits between pistol carbine and elephant gun.

Mine too... Though it is currently loaded with 250gr Hornady FTX loads, or 300gr Hornady XTP loads. It replaced a lever gun in .45 Colt as my camping and hiking carbine since it is 2lbs lighter and packs more punch in .450 Bushmaster.

Attachment 240518

[Cold Trigger Finger]

...instead of a shotgun or large heavy rifle, what are the thoughts on a pistol caliber carbine... .41 Mag, .44 Mag, .45 Colt...or .454...

With a heavy for the caliber HC bullet don't see why it wouldn't work and in a handy stainless carbine would be handy to carry...

I think a pistol caliber carbine is a GREAT option ! Even a 357 mag. A friend has one with an 18" barrel. He has shot the 180 gr Buffalo Bore HC ammo in his Marlin and Chronographed it at over 1850 fps.
It might not be my A#1 choice. But it is most definitely useful and effective.
A guy in Fairbanks who is a member here iirc has a Rossi 454 that gets very good velocity with heavy boolits.
Years ago I got a few boxes of CorBon 320 he Penetrators in 454 for my Model 83 Field Grade. They were Fast and I'm sure would be even faster from a carbine.
With a 44 mag or 45 Colt loaded with a 300 gr or heavier boolit that was 100% on the cycling would be excellent.
Why Winchester and Marlin haven't come out with carbines in 454 and 480 is a great mister to me.
The big thing with the 44 and 45 is that they are twisted fast enough so the bullets/ boolits stabilize.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I hate to add to the thread drift but my ar 15 is short and light and shoots 405 grain boolits at a average of 1625 fps.

Kinda fits between pistol carbine and elephant gun.

I agree . much better than a bird gun

[Cold Trigger Finger]

[QUOTE=35remington;4634614]It has already been pointed out that heavy hard cast slugs are available for the shotgun both as loaded ammo and as components that can be loaded. See Dixie slugs, for instance.

A person can figure out a way to get them (possible ways were enumerated earlier by other posters). Here is a place that has the desirable slugs in stock that delivers them anywhere in Alaska. That did not seem at all hard to discover, and glad to help. Search their inventory under “shotgun.”

http://10mmbelow.com/anchorage_inven...0&sort=nameAsc



Slugs do in fact penetrate very sufficiently and since this has mooted the question.


In fact, lots of slugs DONT penetrate sufficiently
No doubt that in Nebraska you have had to deal with hundreds of problem bears in your line of work.
I know that I have on the coasts of Alaska since about 1979 . The first time I went tent camping on Kodiak Is.
The shotgun thing has been gone over and over and over and over.
Guides and bush Alaskans use rifles and sometimes handguns to deal with problem bears. If you want to use a bird gun against problem bears where ever you are that's fine with me. But experience has proven that it is a very poor option overall.
Up here if we see someone packin a shotgun for bear defense we know that he is a city boy or a cheechako.

BTW, my 458 weighs 8 lbs9 oz with 4 rounds of ammo and a strap sling. With the muzzle brake it has a 21 1/4" barrel from the receiver ring forward.
Being a stainless Ruger M77 Mk2 it is the toughest rifle known to man. Also the safest .
Which brings up a whole nuther reason why many firearms aren't optimal for the role of bear protection.
HOW SAFE IS THE SAFETY ON YOUR BEAR PROTECTION GUN ?????
As most of the time an up close bear encounter will resolve itself without a shot being fired. But the gun needs to be brought to bear on the bear. Finger OFF the trigger firearm ready to fire at the stroke of the trigger.
How much is involved to get to that point.
One of the strongest points in favor of a double action revolver.
How easy is it to accidentally bump the safety to the fire position while going about your day or night.
One of the reasons I chose the M77 Mk2 is when the safety is on full safe it does not get bumped off and yet is very easy to move into the fire position. The only other safety on a rifle that is as secure as the M77 Mk2 Ruger is the 98 Mauser military safety. But it takes a little more doing to get it off safe.
Even in dense bear population areas , the miles a person will pack their gun compared to how many times they will need to use it to repel a threat is quite a bit. However, the firearm always needs to be ready for immediate use.
I've had the button safety on 870s and JC Higgins and the tang style safety on Mossberg 500s and 835s get accidentally bumped to the fire position.
I've had hammers get partly cocked on exposed hammer lever rifles and carbines and the tang safety on old M77s and #1s get bumped off. Rem 700 safeties get bumped to fire all the time !!!
Even the safety on P14 and 1917 Enfields have got flipped to the fire position
The slide safety on commercial 98 Mausers can be easy to accidentally slide into the fire position. I've had a bunch of them in 375 and 458. And my current ( hopefully final) 416 Rem mag is built on a commercial 98 Mauser. A Whitworth Express action. The CZ550 safety and BRNO 602 is a good safety, and yet I bumped one off accidentally once. Course the old style where the safety is pulled rearward to the fire position I never bumped off. But, I had to make myself think of those safeties like I would cocking the hammer on a lever gun.
The big thing to be aware of is what it takes to keep a safe firearm safe.
With Glock and XD striker fired autoloaders, all it takes is protecting the trigger and the XD actually needs the grip safety depressed. A DA revolver just needs the hammer protected. Same with a SA revolver.
I taught myself to automatically flick the safety off on my M77 Mk2s .

[Ozark mike]

I'm not ragging on anyone or there weapon's but I'll trust a lever or bolt gun before I will a auto they tend to fail when I need em. I am talking cleaned lubricated guns that usually fire fine. Until a nice deer is standing in front of ya and the 30 carbine fails to cycle the 2nd shot

[Ramjet-SS]

458 SOCOM SBR really is a good choice it hits like a hammer is reliable and easy to maneuver. 460 grain WFN hard cast are formidable round to say the least. With good brake you can cycle them fast in am AR.

[35remington]

I see the above was quite a post in terms of length, but in any relevant testing including the Linebaugh tests the penetrative shotgun slugs do quite well. There are quite a few available to purchase now. Neither of those two statements are opinion based.

There is no need to lump all shotgun slugs in the same category. Many are specifically designed to penetrate well, and they do. If someone avails themselves of those particular designs they will be well served in that regard.

It is still mystifying how a handgun can gain approval for such yet shotguns heaving 600-875 grain slugs are claimed to be underpenetrative by the same source by classifying all slugs as similar in an overly broad and misleading statement. We’re not discussing factory Winchester soft swaged slugs in making this refutation of those claims. That needed to be made clear.

[40-82 hiker]

In keeping with the OP's question, I do not think a DA best in situations involving Griz. Back in the day I carried alternately a 12 ga., and or a Ruger BH. I far preferred the 12 ga. with slugs. However, I do feel a DA is superior in the referenced situations to my SA Ruger BH. Unless skilled in other-thumb cocking, using the grip-thumb to cock the hammer grossly weakens the hand grip on the pistol. This seems a rather important point to me, but JMHO. With the DA, or even the semi-autos, one can squeeze the grip for all on is worth with one or two hands, and never weaken the grip.

[jmort]

Lloyd has been to the Linebaugh seminars. There are members that worked with Dixie Slugs and the late great James Gates. The Dixie shotgun ammunition performed as expected, excellent. According to a member here who tested the Dixie slug, it had the largest wound channel of anything that stood up to the test. Penetration was more than enough at 45"
http://www.dixieslugs.com/forum1/vie....php?f=3&t=181

[megasupermagnum]

Don't even engage the guy. Clearly he is just looking for a fight with us who like our "fowling piece" as though this is the 17th century.

[JBinMN]

Lloyd has been to the Linebaugh seminars. There are members that worked with Dixie Slugs and the late great James Gates. The Dixie shotgun ammunition performed as expected, excellent. According to a member here who tested the Dixie slug, it had the largest wound channel of anything that stood up to the test. Penetration was more than enough at 45"
http://www.dixieslugs.com/forum1/vie....php?f=3&t=181

Thanks for that link.

[35remington]

Good advice. Just pointing out contradictions where they exist.

[pmer]

Mine too... Though it is currently loaded with 250gr Hornady FTX loads, or 300gr Hornady XTP loads. It replaced a lever gun in .45 Colt as my camping and hiking carbine since it is 2lbs lighter and packs more punch in .450 Bushmaster.

Attachment 240518

Yeah I like my socom as well. My 45-70 is down the road. I would still want a 4 inch model 29 on me. The biggest rifle I could use for hunting at the moment would be a 358 winchester.

[Earlwb]

Of course, maybe we are all going about it wrong. This Russian guy chased off a bear using a special bat.

[jmort]

There is a lot of information out there on the terminal performance of Dixie Slugs. A prior version, less formidable than the current Dangerous Game Slug, did this at the Linebaugh Seminar according to one of our most knowledgeable members who is active on our Shotgun Sub-Forum:

"The 730 grain hard cast .73 caliber Terminator moving out at 1268 FPS, penetrated 29 inches into the wet pack. This round blasted a 4 inch wide tapering tunnel for the biggest "wound channel" of the seminar!

The slightly deformed nose of the Terminator on the left above occured when one round was fired too close th to top of the paper. It exited the paper stack near the end of its travel and slammed into the heavy pine support board.

For comparison, a Federal .416 Rigby round with a 400 grain Partition, penetrated 30 inches with a considerably smaller displacement of the test medium."

[Idaho45guy]

Of course, maybe we are all going about it wrong. This Russian guy chased off a bear using a special bat.

I think it has something to do with the track pants. Russians love track pants...