Can we all agree that a double-action revolver is best for bear defense?

[Ozark mike]

Well I think we can agree that a heavy shotgun slug will do more damage then most pistols could Dream of. I know a moderate 45-70 load will travel lengthwise through a brown bear so a shottie slug should do better than 8in maybe a bad powder charge

[megasupermagnum]

Good grief. I won't even pretend to know about dangerous game, but I do know shotguns. From my experience shooting, testing, and hunting with shotgun slugs, there is NOTHING available to the common man that is more effective inside of 75 yards. There are plenty of powerful rifles out there like 375 h&h on up, but I wouldn't consider something like that affordable. The great thing, and possibly the bane of the misinformed, is that you can load a shotgun with all kinds of different ammo. A shotgun is the only gun you could truly hunt the world with. Soft rifled slugs are great for deer, but as noted, flatten out and don't penetrate that much. They go clean through deer chest from any reasonable angle, and leave a 1" hole in their wake. If you want penetration, you will want something like a Brenneke, or better yet, one of the hard cast slugs. You can find Brenneke slugs just about anywhere, and I've never recovered one from an animal. I've seen them go cross ways through a deer, 3 feet or more of penetration, and still a hole you can stick your thumb into.


I'm sure you can get 500+ grain slugs in 45-70, but they are only going to leave holes half the size of a brenneke slug.

[Chad5005]

I have a 500 s&w 8 1/2 inch barrel and a 480 in a tuarus with 7 1/2 inch barrel but my choice would be my raging bull judge in 454 with a 2 inch barrel in a chest rigg and a 870 in hand

[pmer]

Speaking of 12 ga. slugs I remembered a picture of a recovered slug from a yearling buck. It was under the skin on the off side, 30-40 yard broad side shot. I was surprised to recover it. (The one on the right on both pics) So I'm thinking a cheap box of 1 oz slugs would not be a good choice for big critters.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I am not sure how a 10mm with a solid bullet at 1100 fps can garner praise while a 12 gauge with far more projectile weight at considerably higher velocity with a wide selection of slugs available that are known for penetration (Brennekes, anyone?) can be derided as a worthless fowling piece when “loaded with Anything.”

Methinks someone needs to look into the matter more. Very relevant 12 gauge ammo choices are clearly being overlooked by anyone advancing such a notion. I can list a great many should anyone have difficulty understanding what they are missing out on when making such pronouncements.

From 1982 thru 2008 I lived almost continuously in dense bear country in Southeast Alaska. Working and living in the brush , thinning trees , logging and falling timber. Living in remote camps.
Everyone likes to talk up Brenneke shotgun slugs. Pie in the sky. I have seen Brenneke slugs for sale possibly 2 times in Alaska. They can be the best thing in the world. But if you can't get them then it don't mean nothin.
Where as a 416 or 458 is similar weight, no longer and very effective with almost any load you want.
Want mild recoil, load a 400 gr bullet to 2150 fps. Want the most instantly effective bear loads I've ever used. Load a 300 gr TSX to 2700-2900 fps.
A 350 gr Speer Hot Core @ 2450 fps is a great bear load . and any of the 40s and the 458 will do that easily. Even an 18" barreled 416 Taylor.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I've only found Brenneke slugs in 2 places in Alaska in over 40 years. And all the 12 ga was sold out both times.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Good grief. I won't even pretend to know about dangerous game, but I do know shotguns. From my experience shooting, testing, and hunting with shotgun slugs, there is NOTHING available to the common man that is more effective inside of 75 yards. There are plenty of powerful rifles out there like 375 h&h on up, but I wouldn't consider something like that affordable. The great thing, and possibly the bane of the misinformed, is that you can load a shotgun with all kinds of different ammo. A shotgun is the only gun you could truly hunt the world with. Soft rifled slugs are great for deer, but as noted, flatten out and don't penetrate that much. They go clean through deer chest from any reasonable angle, and leave a 1" hole in their wake. If you want penetration, you will want something like a Brenneke, or better yet, one of the hard cast slugs. You can find Brenneke slugs just about anywhere, and I've never recovered one from an animal. I've seen them go cross ways through a deer, 3 feet or more of penetration, and still a hole you can stick your thumb into.


I'm sure you can get 500+ grain slugs in 45-70, but they are only going to leave holes half the size of a brenneke slug.

A 300 gr 458 TSX with a mv of 2700 fps leaves a baseball size hole completely thru a 7 ft sq. Brown bear on a broadside shot from 50 feet away. Been there done that. That bear died at the speed of gravity. It was dead and on the ground before my fingers touched the bolt knob.

[M-Tecs]

Some interesting info here

http://forums.outdoorsdirectory.com/...nneke-slug-use

"The 1 1/8oz Classic Magnum is our issue slug. I have a few kills with it and I don't have a problem crawling around in the alder bushes when necessary.

We've discussed the Black Magic and Special Forces slug, but until the original fails to do the job, there's no need to replace it. We also prefer to stick with the 2 3/4 shells. Several years ago in a training environment, I had a 3" shell hang up in the gun when I fired and tried to shuck the empty out. It was a true hang up not due to short stroking the gun and required surgery with a Benchmade blade to clear. I'm not about to trust 3" shells for a dedicated life-saving gun.

About three years ago, a 9 footer decided it would be a good idea to stick his head through an apartment window that was too small to crawl through and the occupant unleashed a Brenneke Original Classic Magnum from a 20ga. The bear ran off and was found by one of our guys traveling in the other direction about a half-mile away. Noticing the bloody cookie-cutter hole under the eye, he ended the chase with a 405 gr Cast Performance from a .45-70.

Anyways this was a big bear. His head was like a beach ball. When we skinned him out we found the slug had entered under the left eye cutting a nice cookie-cutter hole and wound channel, and traveled along the meaty part of the head coming to rest under the the hide at the back of the head. The only reason we didn't have to use a Come-Along to winch him out the window was because it missed vital organs and bone structure of the skull.

The slug was still intact, slightly flared at the front with the felt/cardboard wad still attached to the rear. As near as we could tell, the slug tracked straight from point of impact to where it come to rest.

That was the only Brenneke we ever recovered. All the others whistled right through. "

[Ozark mike]

This is a pistol thread so I'm going stick with the largest pistol that I can handle reliably which is a bfr 45-70 500grn slober knocker at 1500+fps

[megasupermagnum]

A 300 gr 458 TSX with a mv of 2700 fps leaves a baseball size hole completely thru 7 ft as Brown bear on a broadside shot from 50 feet away. Been there done that. That bear died at the speed of gravity. It was dead and on the ground before my fingers touched the bolt knob.

That must be a 458 win mag? That's the only thing I see close to sending 300 grains at 2700 fps.

In sure a big belted magnum would give a slug a run for its money. Comparing "common" calibers, its no contest. Say 300 win mag vs 12 gauge slug. The slug is better in every way... Inside of 75 yards or so.

[Ozark mike]

458 Lott or 460wby will also

[35remington]

I don’t mean to detour this away from pistols, but it is pretty clear that denigrating the shotgun as useless is not going to fly as an argument with the choices of deeply penetrating slugs that are available, so we will get back to that topic.

It is easy to get stuff you cannot find locally delivered to your door including shotgun slugs. Mail order or the internet. This will reach anywhere ammo is legal to buy. Mail order is certainly not modern technology and predates when any of us was born but will get what you cannot find locally.

As far a pistols go, it is a free country. Carry what you definitely will have on you and have reasonable evidence it could work. That is the best you can do.

[megasupermagnum]

458 Lott or 460wby will also

Both are big belted magnums. Not something the common man will have, even less likely to carry.

[Ozark mike]

More common here I know 2 who own a 460 James a guy I worked with and was bit of a *** shot a black bear in the neck. When they cut the skin around the neck the head fell off and the taxidermist gave him a funny look good rnd for elephant but probably to much for me around here

[M-Tecs]

It is easy to get stuff you cannot find locally delivered to your door including shotgun slugs. Mail order or the internet. This will reach anywhere ammo is legal to buy. Mail order is certainly not modern technology and predates when any of us was born but will get what you cannot find locally.

For the lower forty-eight very true. For most of Alaska not so much. The shipping regs make life a challenge of most of AK.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Well I think we can agree that a heavy shotgun slug will do more damage then most pistols could Dream of. I know a moderate 45-70 load will travel lengthwise through a brown bear so a shottie slug should do better than 8in maybe a bad powder charge

Well that's the thing . powder charge was just fine. The problem was shotgun slugs have horrible sectional density. Even the vaunted Brenneke slugs.
If someone made a handload with a 2 1/2 - 3oz solid shotgun slug . in 12 gauge. And it was movin along at 1100 fps or say an even 1000 fps. Then that might be a worthwhile option. However, the recoil on that is gonna destroy the average 12 gauge fouling piece.
Much better off to leave the scatter guns to the bird hunters and use a nice light rifle.
And from the results I know of from dozens and dozens of dead brown bear . Not just the several I've killed myself. Large caliber handguns and large caliber rifles just plain work for actually Killing bear.
Shotguns mostly end up running a bear off and it's left wandering around wounded.

So, a shotgun will probably keep a person from getting mauled. But what about the next people that may cross that bears path ?

[Cold Trigger Finger]

I don’t mean to detour this away from pistols, but it is pretty clear that denigrating the shotgun as useless is not going to fly as an argument with the choices of deeply penetrating slugs that are available, so we will get back to that topic.

It is easy to get stuff you cannot find locally delivered to your door including shotgun slugs. Mail order or the internet. This will reach anywhere ammo is legal to buy. Mail order is certainly not modern technology and predates when any of us was born but will get what you cannot find locally.

As far a pistols go, it is a free country. Carry what you definitely will have on you and have reasonable evidence it could work. That is the best you can do.

See, there ya go.
Ammo can not be shipped to Alaska like it can down south.
It can come up with checked baggage on an airline ( small amount) Or it can be barged up ( any amount a person can afford ) or if someone is driving up thru Canada they can bring ammo with them.

So while in the big cities of Alaska. Maybe some store carries Brenneke slugs. Lots of Alaskans don't get to the big cities that often.

[JBinMN]

Not posting to start any argument, just some observations.

One is that IIRC, a member here at CB.GL forum is a retired Alaska State trooper. John Van Gelder is his name. His input on what he would suggest as a firearm to carry when having to deal with bears would likely be a good source as any for such situations, as the State troopers /Game wardens have to deal with problem bears & are not "hunting" bears. Their experiences with such things are likely worth paying attention to , as I would not expect the State of AK to send their trooper/game wardens out into danger without having a firearm they thought was capable of dispatching an angry bear, ( or moose). IIRC, they used 12ga Pump shotguns.

Secondly, and I know it is based of a TV show called "Alaska State Troopers", so some will likely say , "Aww, that is just TV.", but I do remember an episode I watched where the "well seasoned"/"experienced" AK State Trooper/Game Warden was going to investigate a person baiting bear too close to a business or dwelling, and his choice of firearm to go into where he might encounter a bear at the bait station, IIRC, was a 12 Ga, pump shotgun.
Now I am not saying that was the proper firearm, and also , like I said, I am not trying to argue. I am just making some "observations" only based on what I have come across.

Lastly, on a more personal note... My youngest sister lived in AK for many years. She was a Marine Biologist for the Univ.AK/State of AK, back during the Exxon Valdez spill & later one after that. She lived in a cabin remote from any "civilization" about 7 miles, part of which was not accessible by motorized vehicle much of the time & she either had to "hump it" to get in or out part way, or not get there at all.
During her trips in/out she carried a 12ga. pump shotgun & while around her place, as her bear defense. She is/was, about 5 ft. tall and slight in build, so she is not a big gal, but the 12ga. was her choice to carry. I might add that one time when I was living in VA, & she came to visit after spending a year in Antarctica doing research, she asked me to take her out to somewhere to shoot both my 44 Mag. SRH (7-1/2"bbl), as well as one of my 12ga. pump shotguns to "re familiarize" her with their operation & get used to being able to shoot them without concern.
When asked, at the time, which she preferred, she told me her choice was the 12ga. as she said she was more confident in using that, than the revolver.

I am only offering up such things as "things to consider".

P.S. - I think if I was going into "bear country" of any kind, my "preference" would be a 12ga. pump shotgun AND my 44 Mag., since those are what I currently have that I think would "fit the bill", & I am pretty certain that either one would do the job, if I did MY job, or I would be severely injured, &/or dead meat.
Knowing my own skills & experience with both firearm platforms, I would likely prefer the shotgun over the pistol now a days, as I have health issues concerning my hands that now make me more comfortable ( in ALL weather, I might add, like gloves being worn, etc.) using the shotgun over the revolver.

Well, that is my thoughts right now on the topic of DA handguns with bears , and the sidetrack of shotguns & rifles.

I have been enjoying reading in this topic. I hope that continues.

[Cold Trigger Finger]

Actually, Gubmint employees are some of the worst people to get reliable info from.
Guarenteed income and golden insurance take alot of intelligent thot out of them.
The best bear stopping firearms are the firearms that bear guides use.
They only really make money from good trophy pics. Which means dead at their feet bears. Marginal or non existent insurance policies.
At least 75% of them use bolt action rifles in 375 H&H/Ruger and larger caliber rifles. I know Lots of guides up here and I don't know a single one that uses a bird gun.
Most/many of them also pack a large caliber handgun. Or have one handy for when they don't think they will need a rifle. Like around camp ect.
375 Ruger and 416 Ruger Alaskan, FTW and Guide Gun M77s are easily available
Just check Gunbroker.com. Buy one and have it shipped to your FFL dealer. Easy pie. About 100 times easier than finding a box of 12 ga Brenneke slugs up here.
Now if Buffalo Bore or CorBon or HSM started making and selling heavy hard cast 12 ga slug ammo. Things might change a little in favor of packin a bird gun. But they don't so that's pretty much that. Or if someone wants to reload shotgun shells with a heavy hard slug. But then your still stuck with low velocity and heavy recoil.
And as carbines like the Marlin Guide Gun is readily available and 45/70 and 450 Marlin ammo is also readily available. Why go with something that is more inconvenient and has such a poor track record.

Ase far as DA revolvers goes. I would love to have a SRH Alaskan in 454 or preferably 480 Ruger or a 2 3/4" Redhawk in 44 mag and or 45 Colt. I do have and pack a G20SF and load it with heavy hardcast. But am thinking I will be going to the 190 gr CEB copper solid fn bullet loaded to 1200 fps. Today I'll be out in the brush and will be wearing my 45 Colt Bisley Blackhawk 5 1/2" loaded with 320 gr Mihec 45 Ruger Max FN solid hard cast over 24 gr of H110. I might put a couple cup nose boolits from the same mold with the same powder charge first 2 waiting for the hammer.

[Ozark mike]

Actually, Gubmint employees are some of the worst people to get reliable info from.
Guarenteed income and golden insurance take alot of intelligent thot out of them.
The best bear stopping firearms are the firearms that bear guides use.
They only really make money from good trophy pics. Which means dead at their feet bears. Marginal or non existent insurance policies.
At least 75% of them use bolt action rifles in 375 H&H/Ruger and larger caliber rifles. I know Lots of guides up here and I don't know a single one that uses a bird gun.
Most/many of them also pack a large caliber handgun. Or have one handy for when they don't think they will need a rifle. Like around camp ect.
375 Ruger and 416 Ruger Alaskan, FTW and Guide Gun M77s are easily available
Just check Gunbroker.com. Buy one and have it shipped to your FFL dealer. Easy pie. About 100 times easier than finding a box of 12 ga Brenneke slugs up here.
Now if Buffalo Bore or CorBon or HSM started making and selling heavy hard cast 12 ga slug ammo. Things might change a little in favor of packin a bird gun. But they don't so that's pretty much that. Or if someone wants to reload shotgun shells with a heavy hard slug.

The use of the guide gun in AK is what got me Started in 45-70 fodder years ago.